[JThompson]

Mr. TS Paul - I can  vouch for Pittsburgh being a very enlightened city.  Jews from the Pittsburgh Field Club are allowed to play Fox Chapel and Oakmont, and vice versa.  

They have reciprocal privileges.  The same cannot be said of (1) Hillcrest and the Los Angeles Country Club, (2) San Franciso Golf Club and Olympic, and (3) Winged Foot and Quaker Ridge.

[Paul Richards]

Tim:

Just trying to get it straight - Stonewall and Olde Stonewall are two different places.  Has anyone visited both and can you describe the differences?

[George Pazin]

Paul -

I don't know for sure, but I think the Stonewall on the lists is the Philly one. Olde Stonewall in western PA did win some Best New Public type awards a few years ago, though.As far as describing the differences, I can't really help you there, since I've only played the western PA one, but, from everything I've read, there's probably more shaping & artificiality at Olde Stonewall.

Everyone else -

If you guys think Quicksilver has conditioning issues, you would hate my home course, North Park, as well as most of the low priced publics north of the Burgh.

I haven't played Diamond Run - haven't even really heard much about it, which is pretty amazing, since it is literally 5-7 minutes from my shop. The only time I drove by was shortly after opening and my only real recollection is that there are many houses that would be in play for me.

[TEPaul]

-1 or JThompson;

I do hope at least one of us finds out who you really are someday--you're just so interesting.

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

Agreed.  I'd love to see him post his real name.

[David Lott]

Mr. Richards:

I grew up in Pittsburgh and played Fox Chapel, Oakmont, Field Club and Longue Vue as a boy in the 1950's and a young man in the 1960's. I still play Fox Chapel once or twice a year, and Oakmont once in a while. Fox Chapel is a wonderful course (all except the 8th hole, which has been tweaked and moved back and forth between a par 4 and 5, but just has difficult topography.) It was fixed up in subtle ways for the Curtis Cup, and in particular the tree removal program was very effective, aesthetically and for quality of play. Fox Chapel has archetypical and well preserved Raynor greenside bunkers, and every hole requires thought and a variety of shots. The conditioning is always good and the view from the porch overlooking the course is one of the most glorious in all of golf. Play it if you can.

I haven't played Oakmont since they took the trees out, but all reports are good, and they know how to run a golfer's club, so it must still be great. Longue View is a quirky course, much more hilly than Field Club, Fox Chapel or Oakmont, but a friend who is a member tells me that it's really well conditioned these days--not always the case in the past.

Allegheny is also a good course--it's a very private, old money place whose members I'm sure would not care a whit whether they were on someone's list of excellent courses.

I doubt the assertion on the thread that some of these clubs have a regular "reciprocity" arrangement that other cities should emulate. Fox Chapel--a place where you can walk out on a Saturday with no tee time and just play away--is a very private place, as is Oakmont. I can't imagine that they just let members of another club show up and play without being with a member.

If you get to Northeast Pa., try Eagles Mere Country Club in Eagles Mere, Pa. on a mountain top north and east of Williamsport. It's a 6100 yard Flynn course, built in the 1920's for the hotels that were then a favored Philadelphia resort. It's a lovely mountain course. The routing has not been changed since it was built, and the greens and (limited) bunkering are also pretty much original. It's not a great course, but is a slice in time that's hard to find.

I've never played Latrobe, but how could you not play Arnie's course. I plan to.

Good luck.

[TEPaul]

David Lott:

The Eagles Mere course is not completely an original Flynn course. I believe at least six holes were there pre-Flynn. The holes Flynn did do although very early appear to us to have been a case where Flynn tried to emulate the character of the original greens which are certainly of an early era look. The greens are unFlynn in look. I admire him though for blending in to the look of what he found, if that's what he did; that would have been an unusual thing to do that early. There's also another obsoleted Flynn 18 holes at Eagles Mere in the woods to the right of the 2nd hole. It was let go very early (1930s?) but the architecture is apparently still out there amongst the trees.

[David Lott]

Glad you know Eagles Mere, where I played many enjoyable rounds as a boy and where I first broke 100 at age 12! The lost holes to the right of #2 were 9 holes rather than 18, if the recollections of the old timers was correct. When I was a boy, it was the range, and I used to make dimes and quarters shagging balls. The course had no practice balls--we just shagged the bags of the guests. Caddying was fifty cents per nine holes per bag, and since I was a shrimp I always carried single and made $2.00 with tip for 18.

The size of the greens may have been an issue of economics and terrain rather than a deliberate attempt to emulate older, small greens. The budget was probably limited, the area was very remote and sparsely populated, so maintenance personnel were inexperienced and scarce. Also the soil is thin and rocky, so green construction was probably difficult. It occurs to me that these factors may be why many older greens were small in the first place!

I know it was a Flynn course only from "The Architects of Golf," which lists it as a Flynn design. Logical, given the proximity to and contacts with Philadelphia. What is the source of your belief that six holes predated Flynn? This makes some sense based on my memory, as holes 1-5 and 18 make a self contained route of 6 holes, and there were some old coots who liked to come out and play these 6 only. One and five are two of the better holes, and 18 was when it was a par four, but last time I was there the private club that now owns the course had made it from a difficult 4 to a easy 5. They had, however, resisted the temptation to otherwised modernize the course. (Sadly, they do water it, which softens it and makes it easier; when it got dry, it was tougher. There's little rough on the course; it's fairway and woods, and when dry it was harder to keep it on the fairway.)

Have you played it? Do if you can. It's a fun day of golf.

[Paul Richards]

David:

Thanks for the info.

[TEPaul]

David Lott:

I think you're probably right that the obsoleted holes at Eagles Mere are only nine--not 18. We have so many of Flynn's original plans I get things mixed up sometimes. Wayne Morrison who contributes here and I are in the process of writing the first book on William Flynn and we have about 90% of Flynn's actual original plans. Never played Eagles Mere but we spent a day there last fall on a very cold rainy day with Bill Albertini (current Merion President) who's been at Eagles Mere for many many years--he grew up in the area! Definitely one of the nicest and most helpful people we've come across as researchers!

The reason I say there were 5-6 holes at Eagles Mere preceding Flynn is they show up on his plans that way. Flynn had a great way (for researchers) of drawing under his own plans what preceded him.

David, from the small number of your posts it seems like you must be fairly new to Golfclubatlas.com. If so let me warmly welcome you. The posts I've seen from you mean to me you will be a termendous asset to this website. Please stick around and keep contributing anything and everything you can think of--it's very interesting.

[wsmorrison]

David,

Tom Paul and I had a thoroughly enjoyable day at Eagles Mere with Mr. Albertini and hope to go back up there soon to see the alternate course that Flynn designed.  Bill Albertini told us about the original 6 holes and the routing does seem to confirm that possibility.  When we return, we'll visit the local museum and historical society to try to figure out the origins of the club and will post the findings.  It is clear from Flynn's design drawings that he added the 12 holes.  Although it is not clear as yet, it seems as though Flynn intended to do a sympathetic addition of the 12 holes in the style of the original holes.  We don't yet have club minutes or materials that might relate to the constraints (budgetary or otherwise) so we have certainly not yet drawn any conclusions.  

As to the second course on the property, it was designed as 18 holes and the trees were cleared for 18 holes.  However, you are correct in that only 9 were finished.  The back 9 (I believe) stopped due to financial difficulties.  There is some amazing topography there with elevation changes on single holes of 100 feet or more, both uphill and downhill.  We'll be out there in hiking boots with Bill Albertini sometime this spring I hope.  It would be best before the leaves come out so that we can explore the site with less limitations.  I can't wait to see the site--I think I'll call Bill today and set it up.

David, Thanks for your comments and look forward to seeing more of your discussions in the future.  Best regards,
Wayne Morrison

[David Lott]

Thank you, fellows. I learned some things about Eagles Mere that I didn't know before.

My comment on Flynn's budgetary limitations was only surmise. No evidence whatsoever.

There is a wonderful old photo in Library of Congress web archive of golfers on the 18th green at Eagles Mere in the 1920's. I think it's a public domain photo, and you could use it for your book if you want something really obscure. Sorry I don't have the link, but search "Eagles Mere" in Library of Congress and you will find it.

Thanks also for the welcome.

I took a look at some web site overhead photos yesterday to see if the ghosts of the old holes were visible. I believe in ghosts, and thought that since my father and grandfather played those holes once, they might appear to me. They didn't, at least not in those pictures. It's been a long time.

I haven't participated much in GCA discussion groups, partly because when I first looked I was astonished at the personal tone some participants seemed to take, partly because I'm just an interested layman with far more to learn than I have to contribute. The prolific Mr. Mucci told me not to worry about the former issue too much, as it's a thick skinned group. I do cruise the site 2 or 3 times a month, and find it to be a fantastic resource for learning about courses that I didn't know of or knew little about.

Also, if you get your kicks seeing dead horses beaten, this is the place to come.

[wsmorrison]

David,
Thanks for the Library of Congress tip.  I found some great photos of other courses (particularly early Glen View Club) some time ago and need to go back to that resource.  I know what you mean about the tone of some posts....but I'm glad to see you come back for more.  There really are a majority of valuable discussions and many more worthwhile folks with only a scant few tiresome types.  Hang in there, its worth it.
Best,
Wayne

[Paul Richards]

David:

Welcome back.   And please continue to contribute!  

[Paul Richards]

What can anyone tell me about Laurel Valley?

[tyelder]

Jeff,

Enjoy!

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