[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Mike
I'd say the difference between Lajitas and Wolf Point is that someone would visit Lajitas/Big Bend if there weren't a golf course there.
The buddies trip model would require build out/investment.


Cary
I find your comment very insensitive.
Wolf Point isn't an industry nor did it have anything to do with the business or industry of golf.
Al had Wolf Point built/improved for himself and immediate family and occasional friends.
He passed away, now it is for sale.

[John Mayhugh]

its a dying industry, no different from retail today, with every mall with excessive vacancy ratws

.Front runner for dumbest post of 2020.

Wolf Point's golf course was built for a single person's use and along with the owner's home is part of a 1600 acre property. There's an airstrip and hangar. The golf course is outstanding, and sensible people should hope it gets preserved in some manner. The property's sale is due to the owner's death. It's not a statement on the viability of public courses or country clubs and has no relation to retail that I can see.
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not sure why Cary's comment is insensitive, other than Mike's obvious attachment to the place he created.  We understand why it was built and the unfortunate reason it is for sale.  Still, it is logical that the discussion looks forward to "what needs/can/should/will happen now? 

I hope it does get preserved, and presume the Owner may have cared most of all about its future.

Obviously, every such private course eventually faces the same fate.  I presume that later in life, the owner would start thinking about succession.   Not that there are many broader lessons to draw from this unusual case.  Are there any examples of privately owned personal golf courses.  Actually, are there any?  Is the Annenberg Estate course in CA still privately held?  Any others? 

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

While I didn't see it as insensitive, my issue was its completely inaccurate.

Retail Goods isn't a dying industry in the least, its just transitioning from traditional stores and malls to the online model via Amazon and others. Furthermore, Wolf Point as I understand it was never intended for retail consumption, but yes it will take a little time to find another owner who is interested in taking it on for what it is.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sentiment has to be removed sometimes. Many golf courses dont stack up. The highest price will win and you must respect the winners wishes. If you bleat then you should have bid more. If you did not bid then STFU

[Mike Nuzzo]

Not sure why Cary's comment is insensitive,

Wolf Point should not be for sale. Al, our friend, was healthy as a horse when he passed, and would still be enjoying his home, camels and golf course every day.


I understand Cary wouldn't get that, which is why I wrote insensitive.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Sentiment has to be removed sometimes. Many golf courses dont stack up. The highest price will win and you must respect the winners wishes. If you bleat then you should have bid more. If you did not bid then STFU

Are you referring to my feelings for Al?
Is your post directed at me?


Talking about me, the industry or any other golf courses not stacking up are just red herrings.
This topic is about Wolf Point for sale via an auction.


If you want the EBITDA - it was always less than $0, as intended.

[Bernie Bell]

I wonder if runway can accommodate Air Force One.

[Steve Lapper]

Mike,


   It is undeniably understandable that you have an emotional attachment to the land, Al & his family, and the course you helped conceive. Any reasonable person in your shoes would, and quite frankly, should.


  I've bought and sold a few golf courses in my day and am forced to take a very dispassionate view of all of  them. Although I've never visited or played Wolf Point, many folks whose opinions I respect talk of it being wonderfully unique and exceptional. I'm sure it is. It sounds like course that, in the pantheon of golf course architecture gems, deserves protecting. You are right...it ought not be for sale, but it takes money, in addition to passion, to keep the doors open and lights on.


 Sadly, the pool of folks willing to pay for something that accomplishes this is very small and getting smaller every day. Golf is a shrinking business and I think that's what Cary was getting at.


 Our rule is to avoid the idea of taking over for future development, any club whose history is important and whose architectural chops retain merit. It's antithetical to our respect for the game. That said, the reverse is equally true where an area or sub-region deserves a culling, or economic thinning of its venues.


  The remoteness of Port Lavarca, coupled with the capital investment necessary to enlarge the needed lodging and dining infrastructures is a strong strike against a good price. It will need at least a real projection of EBITDA to correctly measure any realistic bidding price. Airstrips and a very nice private residence won't hurt, but neither will they attract any buying group looking to operate it beyond for the benefit of a handful or less people.


 I truly hope someone or some team of people step up and make a winning bid and help preserve Wolf Point in some fashion, but it's hard to imagine finding too many who are looking for this kind of opportunity.


 


 


 
 


 

[Peter Pallotta]

Steve's post reminds me of the only real estate 'transaction' I was ever involved in (aside from buying my own house):

Years ago, the aging parents of a friend of mine were ready to sell their lovingly restored century farmhouse and a hundred acres of farmland, and were hoping to fund their retirement years by getting some $600 K for it. It was about 2 hours northwest of Toronto. They got a local agent and put it on the market as 100 acres of productive farmland and a beautiful home -- and then waited month after month for the very few offers that were coming in, all around $200 K.

They told me about all this one night over dinner, and I could see they were both sad and worried about it. With the warning that I knew nothing about real estate or marketing or being an agent, I suggested an idea for their consideration: take it off the market locally, get a Toronto agent from one of our swanky neighbourhoods, and put it on the market as "An Executive Retreat" -- with an traditional Ontario stone farmhouse full of period charm, including its original wood burning fireplace and wide plank flooring and massive dining room, and with rolling hills perfect for horseback rides and quiet walks through the adjacent forests. They liked the idea, and followed up with a Toronto agent -- and a month later someone bought it for $800 K.

To the locals, many of whom were farmers, it was just a farm, i.e. 100 acres more of land, and with a house they didn't need (because they already had their own). But to a wealthy Torontonian, it represented "country living" at its finest -- the good life, straight out of a magazine.

Which is to suggest: what *is* Wolf Point? To us it's a wonderful golf course. To Mike and Don it's that, plus a labour of love and a testament to friendship.  But to anybody else, to whichever very wealthy person may be interested in it, it's a dream, an image, a lifestyle, their own personal 'executive retreat'. And if the above example is any indication, a rich person will pay a lot more for an 'image' than he will for a golf course. The golf course is the icing on the cake.
   


   

[Marty Bonnar]

Would $1.5m be enough for a down payment? If each of us ante up $1k, that gets us started, then another $1k a year annual subs. Does that service the debt? I have ZERO idea about UK, never mind US finances...!


Seriously,


F.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sentiment has to be removed sometimes. Many golf courses dont stack up. The highest price will win and you must respect the winners wishes. If you bleat then you should have bid more. If you did not bid then STFU

Are you referring to my feelings for Al?
Is your post directed at me?


Talking about me, the industry or any other golf courses not stacking up are just red herrings.
This topic is about Wolf Point for sale via an auction.


If you want the EBITDA - it was always less than $0, as intended.

Nothing personal, my point is it will take an unusual person to buy it and maintain the way it is now which in reality is unlikely if it makes zero. If it is going to cost several million, rarely does somebody pay anything over the fair price. The land value sounds more than the golf course value which is probably about 50- 70% of what it cost to build.


A buyer that keeps it for golf almost certainly would run it very differently. Wait and see but I almost certain no one is going to run it as your friend did and whoever stumps the winning bid should be respected for how he wants to run it.

[Mike_Young]

I've heard nothing but good things regarding WP.  As Mike N states ideally the owner would still be playing it and enjoying it. But my bet is the owner knew when the time came to transition to another owner it would be a tough deal.  When these types of places are built, they are built for a person who wishes to play in that sand box they build until they tire of it.  When they tire of it they usually take a big hit if they can find anyone at all who wishes to step in and continue to operate with an EBITDA below 0.  From personal experience I built one for an individual owner who had it in a small town that could not justify such a place.  Average loss was over a million a year. He spent a total of$22 million on course and clubhouse and when he got sick and his company wished to sell it , the initial price began at $14 million and sold for $400,000 two years later. The $400,000 was not a deal because it would still most likely operate at a significant loss.  Another example of a remote course with one owner is the recently built Ohoopee Match Play course.  I've played it a couple of times now and is a fantastic place.  HOWEVER, it takes a special person who wants to own such a place and fund it.  I would wager if that owner ever decided he was tired of playing that game then it would be a difficult course to place with another owner.  None of this is a reflection on the courses. It's all about finding a person who has the desire to operate such a place knowing it will cost him.   

[Duncan Cheslett]

I'm not sure that Ran would like us to go there, and if he objects he can certainly squelch this, but it would be a VERY useful discussion for Golf Club Atlas to debate what Wolf Point is worth.

Surely the only sure way to establish what Wolf Point (or anything else) is worth is to put it to a public auction.


Which is what is happening. We'll find out what it's worth soon enough.


My guess is that unless a couple of billionaires engage in a bidding war it will sell for not much more than the value of its bare land. A single billionaire bidding against farmers is not going to have to pay a big premium to secure the deal.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's an article appropriately placed in the Robb Report:




https://robbreport.com/shelter/homes-for-sale/this-sprawling-texas-ranch-has-its-own-pro-grade-golf-course-and-a-private-airport-2899797/

[Steve Lang]

    I’m seriously hoping to win the lottery, and swoop in to grab it up


Interesting no reserve auction...

[Mike Hendren]

The only issue is whether this opportunity comes across the desk of the right buyer.  You only need one.  Look folks, this is chump change for thousands of Americans.   I assume yachts and homes in the Hamptons continue to sell in today's economic environment.  Surely for some golf loving millionaire this investment has as much utility as those, just to cite two examples.  It's just not as impressive to brag about at cocktail parties. 

Prospective purchasers didn't get where they are today by wasting time on some golf architecture internet site.  Nor by making investments that provide a negative return.  But,  it seems to me to fly in, play a little buddy golf and escape the enemy occupied territory that this world has become is pretty tempting.  Perhaps priceless. 

My biggest concern is some type A trying to hang new shiny ornaments on what is already a damn good Christmas tree.

Don and Mike, I hope this ends well to your satisfaction.  I love the place.

Bogey

[Steven Blake]

Al had a vision that was carried out by Don and Mike. Everything about the course and experience at Wolf Point is epic. It’s a course that should be studied for all of GCA nerds as a model of something that’s different but a huge success on so many levels. Hopefully it’s kept in tact as much as possible so that this gem that Al, Don and Mike created can live on in Al’s memory as something truly special and unique in the game of golf.

[Don Mahaffey]

https://www.golf.com/travel/2020/02/24/mysterious-exclusive-wolf-point-golf-club-sell-huge-price/




Nothing new in article.
 
I know a little about who is involved in the process and feel pretty confident WP club will have a new owner soon.


As for what would become of the course after he could no longer play or died, I can tell you exactly how Al felt. “I don’t care, I’ll be dead”.
It’s the purity of his vision for the course that made it what it is. He didn’t want Mike and I to listen to anyone outside our circle. It was a golf course created for one man for a period of time.


I think I know exactly what Al would say. “They bought it, I don’t care what they do with it”

[Jason Topp]

Current Bid is $7 million with two days left in the online auction.

[Paul Jones]

Current Bid is $7 million with two days left in the online auction.

Jason,


Do you have the link to the auction?


I read a couple of articles, but no one posted the site for the auction.

[Jason Topp]

Current Bid is $7 million with two days left in the online auction.

Jason,


Do you have the link to the auction?


I read a couple of articles, but no one posted the site for the auction.

You have to register but can do so through this link:


https://www.conciergeauctions.com/blog/wolf-point-golf-course-texas-gulf-coast-auction-no-reserve

[Adam Clayman]

Whatever it sells for, I hope after all is said and done, Mike + Don get the credit and recognition they deserve for creating a sustainable, clearly enjoyable, model, based on the core principles of the sport.

[mike_beene]

I hope this is not a bad time to ask this question: I am generally familiar with the original threads when you guys got involved, have seen pictures and even found the course from the air one day flying to Hobby from Corpus. I unfortunately could not go when I was invited. Are there some old threads that document who did what on the design and build? Is this the type of layout that could be built in some similar fashion elsewhere? Or would that feel wrong or violate any agreement. I think of the El Baroque plans,etc. I assume summer is too hot but rest of year pleasant. Sorry this took such a untimely setback for sad reasons.

[John Mayhugh]

Mike,
If you haven't read this on Mike's website, its a great place to start.


http://www.mnuzzo.com/wp.html

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