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Bill Brightly

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2019, 10:03:38 PM »
I've ordered my copy, of course. I'm curious if it will be strictly about the routing/construction, or if it will include some insights about dealing with the owners.


Tom's writings always make me wish that Raynor put pen to paper!





Greg Holland

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2019, 10:49:01 PM »
Canít wait to read this - the routing of the course is probably the part that intrigues me the most.

Tom_Doak

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2019, 07:52:26 AM »


I've ordered my copy, of course. I'm curious if it will be strictly about the routing/construction, or if it will include some insights about dealing with the owners.



Dealing with clients is often a big part of the routing process, so that part's in there.


However, since the focus is on routing, I don't talk much about the construction of the courses in this book, unless the routing of a couple of holes changed during construction.  [Which does happen occasionally.]

Kalen Braley

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2019, 12:43:28 PM »
Book sounds fascinating, i'm certainly tempted...


A bucket list item of mine is to be on site and watch a course from initial routing to being put in the ground and then finished product.  This is the one part of GCA that largely remains a mystery to me...

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2019, 12:50:58 PM »
Book sounds fascinating, i'm certainly tempted...


A bucket list item of mine is to be on site and watch a course from initial routing to being put in the ground and then finished product.  This is the one part of GCA that largely remains a mystery to me...



For those who have done it, I wonder how many were somewhat disappointed?  Seeing how much more practically (rather than mystically) decisions are made might disappoint a few here, IMHO!


We want a really deep bunker here....wait, it's below the river, it won't drain, I guess a standard depth bunker will work.  What if we fill the green?  Damn, scrapers are already off the site and regulations prevent us getting under tree roots anyway.


Just an example, but based on at least a few discussions I recall from the field.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2019, 01:05:03 PM »
Book sounds fascinating, i'm certainly tempted...

A bucket list item of mine is to be on site and watch a course from initial routing to being put in the ground and then finished product.  This is the one part of GCA that largely remains a mystery to me...

For those who have done it, I wonder how many were somewhat disappointed?  Seeing how much more practically (rather than mystically) decisions are made might disappoint a few here, IMHO!

We want a really deep bunker here....wait, it's below the river, it won't drain, I guess a standard depth bunker will work.  What if we fill the green?  Damn, scrapers are already off the site and regulations prevent us getting under tree roots anyway.

Just an example, but based on at least a few discussions I recall from the field.


Jeff, Safe to say not all parts of the process will be as interesting as others.  You can safely throw in the irrigation puzzle piece in the not interesting bucket as well.  ;)

But things that would be high on the list, at least from where i sit:

- Getting the topo map, determining initial routings, doing the site visits to finalize the routing.
- The clearing process when you start to see the land forms and what works or not.
- Tweaks to the holes for natural tie ins, filling in, and perhaps creating interest in the fairways.
- Determining tee and bunker locations.
- Figuring out what green shape, style, size to go with.


Tom_Doak

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2019, 01:39:44 PM »

Safe to say not all parts of the process will be as interesting as others.  You can safely throw in the irrigation puzzle piece in the not interesting bucket as well.  ;)

But things that would be high on the list, at least from where i sit:

- Getting the topo map, determining initial routings, doing the site visits to finalize the routing.
- The clearing process when you start to see the land forms and what works or not.
- Tweaks to the holes for natural tie ins, filling in, and perhaps creating interest in the fairways.
- Determining tee and bunker locations.
- Figuring out what green shape, style, size to go with.


Not many people get to participate in the routing of a course and then all the way through the construction of it.  It's really a rare opportunity.


Sometimes, my lead associate for the project will be available to help with the routing of the course, but many times they will be working somewhere else while I'm working on the initial plan.  Plus, I don't always know who's going to be the lead associate for the project that early in the process.


The rest of it, the lead associate will definitely participate in, but maybe not anyone else.  More often than not, the greens shaping will be divided among two or even three people, so nobody besides me is really right there for all 18 of them.

Kalen Braley

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2019, 01:55:36 PM »
Tom,


I suspected that might be the case.  But if someone offered to both observe the entire process and take notes on thier own dime and then provide the information back to the architect for free, would this be interesting to someone like you?

Thomas Dai

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2019, 02:08:46 PM »
A while back I started a thread about the most difficult aspects of being a golf course architect.
Whilst I canít find the thread link at the moment I do recall that the responses were insightful and often focused on essentially non-architecture related matters.
Atb

David Harshbarger

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2019, 02:13:21 PM »
Mr. Dai,


IIRC, the cold-water splash of reality was a mix of navigating permits, drainage, ensuring safety and appropriate buffers for shot dispersion, drainage, project scheduling, drainage, dealing with contractors, drainage, budgeting, and finally, something having to do with water.....drainage?


 ;D


Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distanceóand I don't see anyone pointing this outóis that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Joe Hancock

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2019, 03:45:49 PM »
I love music. I wish I had the aptitude to play music on some instrument. Every once in awhile, I think Iíll put my nose to the grindstone and learn.


Then,I realize that learning music will frustrate me because I donít have enough time in life to learn how to play music at a level that would satisfy me.


Again, I go back to being the end-user, and gladly put in my earphones and listen to music, appreciating the hours and hours of work that musicians must put in to become great.


Tom, how do we fellow ďmusiciansĒ sign up for your book?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2019, 04:23:18 PM »

Tom, how do we fellow ďmusiciansĒ sign up for your book?


Joe:


I'm going to set aside 100 books for people in our industry to buy at a much-reduced rate - as long as they promise not to re-sell it.


Anyone interested in that deal should write a letter to my office address - 530 E Eighth St, Traverse City, MI 49686.  Offer applies only to those who send me a letter prior to publication.


Individuals who were directly involved in those 18 projects may qualify for a free copy.

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2019, 08:12:23 PM »
...
Individuals who were directly involved in those 18 projects may qualify for a free copy.

Brian Slawnik here. PM me and I'll send my current address to send the free copy to.















;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim_Weiman

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2019, 11:07:47 PM »
Tim,


I've got a sneaky feeling there's a difference between drawing pictures of cool golf holes on graph paper, and actually bringing them to life. I'd like to see for myself just how big that gap is.


note: I had a cub scout den mother take us on a tour of the Kahns meat packing plant in Cincinnati when I was about ten years old. To say it left an impression would be an understatement.




Michael
Michael,


No doubt there is a difference between drawing golf holes on paper and actually bringing them to life. However, I suspect that even for most golf architecture junkies, the construction, drainage, irrigation, etc. stuff probably isnít their main interest.


Routing, IMO, is of far greater interest. I think of it as a puzzle, but when we go see and play a course, the puzzle has already been solved (for better or worse).


Playing a course can be great, of course. But, we really never get a feel for what the architect was thinking when the routing plan was done.


Take a course like Spyglass Hill. It has been observed that the exposure to the ocean comes all at the beginning and ends with the 6th hole turning back inward into the woods. Iím assuming RTJ would argue that was really the best way to go.


Perhaps it was. IDK. But, it would be cool to understand what convinced what RTJ was thinking. That is what golf architecture literature is missing, IMO, and explains why Tomís book is so welcome.
Tim Weiman

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2019, 02:23:23 PM »
I did not intend to advertise the book here.


The title is a double entendre, as it covers my first 18 courses - actually, 19, since I have never counted The Sheep Ranch as an official course.  That will be one of the more interesting chapters, since Bill Coore was kind enough to provide his routing, and I could analyze the things he found that Don Placek and I had not found.


So, Pacific Dunes is in there, and it will be covered in depth.  [How in depth?  Even Mike Keiser never saw my first routing, which I will include.]


St. Andrews Beach was my 18th [/19th] course, so that's the last one included, right after Cape Kidnappers and Barnbougle.  There are also a few projects I didn't get to buiid, like the 2nd course at Cape Kidnappers, and Erin Hills.  Ballyneal, Sebonack, and Tara Iti [among others] will have to wait for a future book.


As Tim W. says, the point of the book is to fill a gap missing in the literature of golf architecture . . . an architect explaining why he put the golf holes where he did.


It IS expensive.  I know there is a limited market for it, so it's a limited edition, which should make it worth more.  It will be very expensive to print, as we are printing it big enough to read the topo maps.  I hired my former associate Sara Mess to help edit it.  I will be sure to offer at-cost discounts to all of my former associates, and other architects who want a copy.


Somehow, in spite of the cost, I've gotten 200+ orders for it in the past three days.




Heard it comes with a round at Stonewall??
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Carl Rogers

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2019, 12:31:06 PM »
I will pre-empt what Tom's discussion of Riverfront might be,.......


The routing was based on capturing the most attractive pieces of the development (wetland & Nansemond River views) for the golf course.


 For the front nine that would represent the 3rd green site, the entire 4th hole, 5th hole tee shot & 8th hole green site.  There is a 2 way wetland bridge from 3rd green to 4th tee and on the way back from 8th green to the 9th tee.


For the back nine, that would represent all of holes 13 & 15.  And the green site of hole 14.  Another wetland bridge from 14th green to 15th  tee.  The 15th hole green site has a stunning view of the Nansemond River.


For the course to be successful, those landmark  elements had to be the starting points.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 12:38:52 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Pete_Pittock

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2020, 02:49:14 PM »
Tom,
Can we expect an earlier publishing date for Volume II with all this free time?

PCCraig

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2020, 03:08:26 PM »
Tom,
Can we expect an earlier publishing date for Volume II with all this free time?


For real!!  :)
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2020, 07:33:33 PM »
Hey guys:


Sara Mess, who's helping me with the book, is a teacher now, and used her spring break (just before schools shut down) to come to TVC and put the book to bed.  Since then, we have only made about 100 edits and proofreading fixes!


But we called it good at 5:30 this evening, and she will upload it to the printer tomorrow !


That means we are on track to have the books back to us around Memorial Day, and you will have yours in early June.  Sorry it has taken so long - this one is really my opus, so finishing was extra hard!


I also had an idea yesterday for a GCA-based charity offshoot - will discuss with Ran tomorrow.

Michael Wolf

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2020, 07:35:46 PM »
Dunking booth?

Tom_Doak

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2020, 07:39:26 PM »
Dunking booth?


That would have been much more lucrative for The Confidential Guide.  You could have just kept bidding David Kidd up higher  :D

Tim_Cronin

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2020, 09:02:42 PM »
Hey guys:


Sara Mess, who's helping me with the book, is a teacher now, and used her spring break (just before schools shut down) to come to TVC and put the book to bed.  Since then, we have only made about 100 edits and proofreading fixes!


But we called it good at 5:30 this evening, and she will upload it to the printer tomorrow !


That means we are on track to have the books back to us around Memorial Day, and you will have yours in early June.  Sorry it has taken so long - this one is really my opus, so finishing was extra hard!


I also had an idea yesterday for a GCA-based charity offshoot - will discuss with Ran tomorrow.


Isn't proofing a joy? Just finished with a book I designed and am wrapping up another. Just when you think it's done ...


Ordered a few months ago, so eager to see this. That's a good turnaround, seven weeks from upload to in hand, especially with a non-standard size. Gang, be patient!
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Colin Macqueen

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2020, 03:10:40 AM »
Tom, and any others with info:


Is there an expectation that delivery times, to overseas in particular, for those pre-ordered books could be compromised due to COVID19 disruption. I'm not worrying about viral transmission more that the usual logistics might be somewhat jiggered and I don't want my self-indulgent Doak book to go missing in action!


Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2020, 03:57:02 PM »
I've ordered a couple of things from the US recently (to Germany) and it took the usual amount of time.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposť (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Tom_Doak

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Re: "Getting to Eighteen" by Tom Doak
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2020, 06:29:00 PM »


Is there an expectation that delivery times, to overseas in particular, for those pre-ordered books could be compromised due to COVID19 disruption. I'm not worrying about viral transmission more that the usual logistics might be somewhat jiggered and I don't want my self-indulgent Doak book to go missing in action!





Colin:  I haven't had much feedback lately about the [other] books we are shipping now, and whether they're taking any longer to get to their destination.  I'd be surprised if they weren't taking a little bit longer, but we haven't had many calls about "Where is My Book?," apart from one spouse who'd ordered the new book without realizing it wasn't available for shipping yet.




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