[Andy Hughes]

I wonder what percentage of golfers truly dither between hitting it to the middle of the green vs. taking on the risk of such a back pin. I suspect most are just trying to hit the green.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

That is the beauty of these greens. There is a risk reward on almost every green. On one it is very tough to two putt if not on the right  plateau which puts you at risk if pin is on back shelf. 2 is the same and so on. The Mac/Raynor green complexes are things og beauty and ML is no exception.

[Tim Gavrich]

Such a feature exists on holes 12 and 13 at Connecticut's beloved Wintonbury Hills.  Hole 12 is a par 3 where the player can bounce the ball onto the green from the front.  The player must beware a ball coming in hot, because there's a steep dropoff over the back (no bunker, but it's not integral to the success of the feature, IMHO).  13 is a par 5 where you can do the same thing, more or less, but there's another steep bank leading down to what's always appeared to be a bunker that was abandoned early on in the course's life.

It seems to me that rear bunkers are an underestimated architecture feature.  For most golfers, they're out of play (since a small percentages of bad shots go over the green), yet they still play with our heads.  Anytime a human being can be outwitted by some maintained grass and sand (maybe a few trees and a little water), it makes things interesting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I am sorry I missed your moment in the sun at ML.

I so agree with the impact of this feature.

I find myself thinking about this on 1,2,4,6,8 and 17.

Any time the hole is located near the back edge of the green you have to give the approach and recovery additional thought.

# 1 is hard to visualize and to get to due to the uphill nature of the hole, the configuration of the green and the visual presented, but, when you play 36 and you've already played # 1, the hole location is burned into your head, and gives you fits when trying to figure out how to best play the shot.[/color]

Anytime a pin is in the back of the green this comes into play in spades. On most of the above it is nearly impossible to get up and down to a back pin from there.

Not only is it difficult to up and down it from behind the green, but, a double bogey now comes into play if you aren't careful or if you don't execute properly.[/color]

Oh by the by ND is having another top 5, in this case top, recruiting class and they still underachieve like no school I have ever seen.

Seeing as how they hadn't had a top recruiting class in decades, until two years ago, how can you say that ?

I forgot that ND doesn't rent their student-athletes.
ND's scholarship football players actually attend class and 93 % or more graduate.

So, I guess it depends on how willing a University is to win at all costs.  Especially when the cost is depriving their student-athletes of an education over four years, and then dumping them into the adult world without the necessary tools to cope.

Charlie will be fine, just give him another two years of recruiting his own players.[/color]

It should come as no surprise their AD spent time at Tulane, a breeding ground for how to lose with a smile.

Wasn't it an ND guy that revived the LSU football program starting in 1995 ?

Didn't he take over a program with six (6) straight losing seasons and bring them back with a winning record and a top 25 ranking during the season ?

Didn't that ND guy lead them to a # 12 ranking in 1996 ?

Didn't that ND guy lead them to the cover of "Sports Illustrated" in 1997 with their upset win over # 1 Florida ?

They were doing great, with high national rankings .. until .... they played ND, and then they lost two out of three to ND, including losses to unranked ND teams, and the rest is history, they spiraled ever downward until the Gypsy again revived their program.

So, an ND guy was responsible for their rise to prominence and ND was responsible for their return to mediocrity.

I sense a case of history repeating itself  [/color]

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

The other end of the greens at Mountain Lake feature some extraordinary contouring making front hole locations extremely difficult.

The thumbprint on the 2nd green is a prime example of how hard angles and hazard integration can make for multiple strategies from the tee.

When I would place the hole on the front left corner, the player was given two choices on approach. Take the thumbprint that extends into the approach out of play by going down the left side and challenging the fairway bunkers, or carrying a tee shot over the tree on the right side in order to have more fairway with which to run the ball through the thumbprint.

Do you recall where the hole was on 2 that day? I've found the front locations are exceedingly difficult as the approach contours are very much in play from the downhill lie of the approach shot.

What did you think of the fall away nature of the 13th and 16th greens? Were you able to play the front hole on either? The back left on either?

[Mike Policano]

AHughes,

Part of the beauty of ML is that after a decent drive, the pin position definitely dictates the approach shot.

This is especially true on one. I played it three times this weekend and had 9 iron, wedge and gap wedge in. If you wind up on the wrong tier, you are grinding not to three putt. And with the shallower top tier and the bunker behind, it definitely gets your attention.

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

The other end of the greens at Mountain Lake feature some extraordinary contouring making front hole locations extremely difficult.

Kyle, with the internal contouring and sharp edges, there's an abundance of good to great hole locations[/color]

The thumbprint on the 2nd green is a prime example of how hard angles and hazard integration can make for multiple strategies from the tee.

When I would place the hole on the front left corner, the player was given two choices on approach. Take the thumbprint that extends into the approach out of play by going down the left side and challenging the fairway bunkers, or carrying a tee shot over the tree on the right side in order to have more fairway with which to run the ball through the thumbprint.

The hole was cut left center on the left ridge.
I chose to hit my tee shot over the tree to give me a better angle of attack into the pin[/color]

Do you recall where the hole was on 2 that day?

Yes, far left, middle of the green[/color]

I've found the front locations are exceedingly difficult as the approach contours are very much in play from the downhill lie of the approach shot.

Kyle, I'm not diminishing the relevance of other hole locations, only emphasizing the unique challenge presented by the confluence of features to be found at the rear of a number of greens[/color]

What did you think of the fall away nature of the 13th and 16th greens? Were you able to play the front hole on either? The back left on either?

Both holes were cut in the back left of those greens.

Unfortunately, the course was wetter/softer than I would have prefered, hence I attempted to fly the approach to the mid point or further back.[/color]

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, that ND guy is a radio guy now. In fairness to him he did a great job until his Dad passed away. He was not ever the same. ND recruits great players. That is my point. They have great great players and it seems underachieving is becoming their moniker. I still cannot understand how Charlie can watch those guys play Defense and not throw up at how out of position they are such a high percentage of the time. It is like they are not coached at all. A decent high school team has better technique than the Irish the last two years.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, that ND guy is a radio guy now. In fairness to him he did a great job until his Dad passed away. He was not ever the same.

ND recruits great players. That is my point.


Tiger, they have high academic standards that many great players can't meet.

What great recruits graduated as Seniors this year ?
What great recruits will graduate next year as Seniors ?

Where are you getting your information from ?[/color]

They have great great players and it seems underachieving is becoming their moniker.

Where are all of these great players ?
Could you name this year's regular Seniors who are great ?
Could you name this year's regular Juniors who are great ?

And, why isn't the NFL isn't drafting them ?[/color]

I still cannot understand how Charlie can watch those guys play Defense and not throw up at how out of position they are such a high percentage of the time.

I thought you said they were great players ?
Great players aren't out of position such a high percentage of the time, as you allude to. [/color]

It is like they are not coached at all.

How many games did you see ?[/color]

A decent high school team has better technique than the Irish the last two years.

So, a decent high school team would have beaten Georgia Tech, Penn State, Michigan State, Purdue and UCLA as ND did in 2006 ?  How did they beat those teams if they had such bad technique ?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Policano,

I think that hole location influences, or dictates position off the tee.

You may recall the hole location on # 15 on Saturday.
From the mid-point of the fairway - left, you couldn't get near that hole.  You had to be in the right side of the fairway or better yet, the right rough.

I think a great many of the holes where you can determine where the hole is cut, either while on the tee or when passing it while playing another hole, allow the golfer to begin tacking his way, as strategically as possible, as he plans his drive.

Playing 18 in the morning certainly helped strategizing for the afternoon round

[Donnie Beck]

A little OT but who has done work at Mountain Lake since Silva was there? I played yesterday and noticed some changes since I was last there three years ago.

[TEPaul]

Donnie:

Maybe it's in-house stuff and maybe it's an architect whose last name begins with a letter somewhere between N and R.  

[Donnie Beck]

Who ever it was is doing a good job. I liked the work.

[TEPaul]

Glad to hear it. I think most would say that some of the "edges" on some of the architectural restoration features needed to have a certain amount of "softening" done to them. Let's just call it the subtle naturalizing of Raynor architecture, a direction Wayno Morrison would probably approve of. The direction, that is. The larger question with Wayno, however, is whether, at this point, Mountain Lake needs to have a really good William Flynn redesign done to it?

[SPDB]

I brought this up a couple of years back and was shouted down by one of our members, but I will try again.

I have not been to ML since before Silva's work, but
seeing pictures always makes me wonder whether Raynor's (and by extension, Banks) original work was as geometric/squared off as Silva's finished product. I know that we always talk about Raynor's engineered or geometric style, but the repetitively squared-off bunkers Silva presents makes me wonder if he went a little overboard. As a set, the bunkers at ML do not to me resemble any Raynor/Banks bunker with which I'm familiar.

Does anybody else feel this way?

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

The short and consensus answer is yes----eg a lot of people felt that and said that. The commonly used description was "Raynor on Steroids".

I guess you could also say that the Big Architectural Commissioner in the Sky" investigated Brian's Mountain Lake project, determined it did use steroids and consequently busted Brian and the project, put the course in rehab and it's now doing just fine, thank you very much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Some of the squared off look has been and is continuing to be softened.

Donnie Beck,

Ron Prichard is currently involved at Mountain Lake

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, I will be happy to go back to the 3 or 4 national recruiting services and show you ND is top 5 each of the last 15 years. they may have an occasional lapse to 8th or 10th but always are at the top of the pile. Great prospects are not the problem. They get good players out of high school. Many have so much ability they still have great pro careers. Please note last years draft. I unfortunately due to the NBC contract and abc/espn watch 6 to 8 plus of their games each year. Auburn plays solid defense. You always see their players in good position. They may have a play made on them but someone made the play with great effort. It was not given to them. ND plays poor poor defense and has for 2 straight years now. Now back to the issue at hand. I am so pleased you are jumping on the beauty of ML. I am pleased the rounding of some of the bunkers is occurring and will continue. The sharp edges create some playability issues.

[Joel_Stewart]

Donnie Beck,

Ron Prichard is currently involved at Mountain Lake

Not anymore. Gil Hanse has agreed to be the consulting architect. His provision is he can't start on any work for 3 years.


He has suggested that the club remove a few trees, most of which are not indigenous to Florida.


I look forward to seeing what he has in mind in the future.


PS. I love looking at these old threads.   

[archie_struthers]

 


So good to have the real "MUC" back in the corral. Patrick hope all is well!


Steamshovel Banks used this feature to great effect at Forsgate, just a hop skip and wedge from Mountain Lake. When I was learnign to play a lot of the PVGC caddies would travel to play golf, drink some beer and gamble on Mondays at a local course. This was more of a road trip but was always highly attended. We all loved the golf here!

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