[jeffwarne]

Time, hassle, expense?  Porky Oliver is max 5 minutes off I-95 and can be played currently for $25.  Not sure what it is on a peak weekend.  Not much.  Some golfers see good value there; others wouldn't soil their shoes.  De gustibus non est disputandum.  Personally, I'm excited for the rest of this thread, regardless of "Doak level."

+1
Belt notchers need not apply.
(and it doesn't appear so far that Mike went to much expense or travel distance.)

I'm pretty sure none of my last 3 overseas trips have included a Doak 7 (depending upon his rating of Fraserburgh)
But there were plenty of Warne 7, 8 and 9's.
How can one ever expand their own golf universe and diversity of experience if they combine their travle/exploration to someone else's version of an acceptable course rating(in this case a Doak 7)

Carry on-great thread

[Joe Bausch]

[quote author=MCirba link=topic=67809.msg1622081#msg1622081 date=1575292699
I would mention that during the 1950s approximately 15% of the golf course property was taken over by an Air Defense Base replete with big artillery guns that forced a squeezed re-routing of a third of the holes.   Add in the fact that no capital infrastructure investment  has been available since the mid-1950s and there is a lot to recover here.   The great news is that all of the original greensites are still in existence.




Photos of Cobb's Creek (a place I've come to know very well and that I've dedicated a significant portion of my life for the last 10+ years!) from a recent visit in October:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/CobbsCreek_2019/index.html

[Joe Bausch]

Playing short at 6,200 yards and a par 70, there are still any number of solid holes, and a few terrific greens still in existence that belie the expertise applied over the decades.  The temptation of the 290 yard par four 12th to a devilishly raised target followed by a 143 yard par three to a sliver of a green is probably the highlight, but there is sound, enjoyable golf throughout.

Photos of Ed Oliver from a visit in March of this year:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/EdOliver_2019/index.html

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - on the Wilson comment, I was mostly just referencing an old favourite concept of mine, i.e. what an architect 'sees', and how one  architect might 'see' more/less -- and/or differently -- than another architect. No disparagement meant: just a speculation that Wilson's strength might've lay more in one kind of seeing than another.

More generally, and from your single photos only: I'm not good enough of a golfer (architectural stickler though I may be, and card and pencil type no doubt) to 'experience' or want to experience the golf course alone -- so, so far: Seaview is my number one play, as is, cause it reminds me of a minor Colt -- and because I have family out there in that part of New Jersey; and then of course Cobb's Creek, cause the green sites are still there and because of you and Joe, and the history  -- and once the weedy trees are cleared away the feel will be wonderful; and finally Porky's place: I may be a salt of the earth fellow, but I get enough 3.5s right where I am....and, truth be told, I've had more than enough of them. (Hence my thread about you slumming types....easy for you to embrace a 3.5 when you also get to play Pine Valley! )

[Kyle Harris]

I've gotten more joy out of discovering and playing Doak 3-4's with Mike Cirba than I have playing some Doak 8's!

[Joe Bausch]

I've gotten more joy out of discovering and playing Doak 3-4's with Mike Cirba than I have playing some Doak 8's!

There are likely just a handful of people in the world that have played more Doak 2 or lower courses than me.  And Mike is one of them! 

[MCirba]

Thanks, everyone.
I'm going to try and respond to your comments as I'm able but due to limited time right now I'm going to focus on getting a few more reviews posted.  Rest assured that I appreciate your feedback, pro and con.   Thanks, again.

[Thomas Dai]

Nice thread Mike. Super photos (more please).
Nice to hear about US courses we elsewhere in the world might not otherwise known much about.
Great comment by Kyle about the joy of discovering and playing ‘lessor’ courses.
Atb

[MCirba]

Greate Bay Country Club - Somers Point, NJ

Willie Park/W.H "Pipe" Follett 1923, William Robinson 1926, George & Tom Fazio 1970, Ron Garl 1989, Archie Struthers 2002

Doak Scale Rating - 5


From 185 yards, the 13th hole plays to a thimble of a green with bunkers seemingly cut into its very innards.

Greate Bay began life as "Ocean City Harbors", a planned course for Ocean City character Harvey Lake and his family, and though the origins are a bit murky, he hired Willie Park to design a course that likely required some onsite work by Atlantic City pro William Robinson to bring it to life after Park's death.   Shortly upon opening it became the Ocean City Country Club, open to an active membership. 

In any case, the original course like most of Park's designs was top-notch, weaving through an ocean forest with more natural contour than most of southern New Jersey, to greens that are splendidly varied. 

Over the years ownership changed hands a few times and as with many vintage clubs, some decisions were made not in the best interest of the golf course (i.e. driving range, some adjoining condos, a few new "modern" holes built to replace those that were destroyed) and what was left was a hodge-podge of hole styles and routing glitches with little continuity.

in stepped our own Archie Struthers, who has been working bit by bit these past two decades to return to the Park style and excellence throughout the property.   While not fully restorable, the course has been greatly improved, and just as importantly for the long-term viability of the club and course, Archie has returned a sense of place, history, and fun to the club, such that if I lived anywhere within 20 miles I'd join in a minute.

There are numerous terrific holes from Park that still remain untouched, and a wonderfully varied set of greens.   In one sequence you go from the triple-tiered green on 12, to the postage stamp pictured above on 13, to a gull-winged double plateau green on 14, each built to accommodate a particular shot while eschewing others.

Definitely a sentimental favorite of mine, and Archie makes guests feel like family.

[Mike Sweeney]

Why go to all the time, hassle & expense of travel to play any course that is not at least a Doak 7?
With some re-work, could these courses bump up a couple of levels?
Sorry to be the wet blanket.

I think this is a great thread for those of us that travel for other reasons, and try to fit golf in.


I absolutely would have played the Porky Oliver Golf Course if I had seen Mike's post 2-3 years ago. On trips to Annapolis, I never knew the timing of when I could play and just did not want to deal with the private logistics.


There are some good 3.5 Doaks, and some bad. Porky Oliver looks and sounds like my cup of tea. Carry on Mike...

[Joe Bausch]

There are numerous terrific holes from Park that still remain untouched, and a wonderfully varied set of greens.   In one sequence you go from the triple-tiered green on 12, to the postage stamp pictured above on 13, to a gull-winged double plateau green on 14, each built to accommodate a particular shot while eschewing others.

Definitely a sentimental favorite of mine, and Archie makes guests feel like family.

Greate Bay is always a great day of golf.  More photos from a February 2017 visit:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/GreateBay/index.html

[Tim Martin]

There are numerous terrific holes from Park that still remain untouched, and a wonderfully varied set of greens.   In one sequence you go from the triple-tiered green on 12, to the postage stamp pictured above on 13, to a gull-winged double plateau green on 14, each built to accommodate a particular shot while eschewing others.

Definitely a sentimental favorite of mine, and Archie makes guests feel like family.

Greate Bay is always a great day of golf.  More photos from a February 2017 visit:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/GreateBay/index.html

The golf course, atmosphere and Archie as host make Greate Bay a five star day!

[Chris Mavros]

I was able to get to Greate Bay for the first time this summer and really liked it.  Lots of flexibility at each shot and some fun bunkering, especially on the front. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks for the photo link, Joe.
I don't know, Archie. I've never met him. But I like him, and more and more each day!
Greate Bay went to the top of my list.
[PS - goodness, but it reminds me in many ways of that early Tom D course: darn, the name escapes me, but years ago Bogey tried to stump us with photos of it under the 'guess the architect' file. I liked that one too, very much. The architecture -- there and here -- doesn't jump out and yell "Look at ME", like some first year student at a musical theatre school, standing on a table singing something from West Side Story.] 

[MCirba]

Atlantic City Country Club - Northfield, NJ

John Reid/H.J. Tweedie 1897, Herbert Barker 1910, Willie Park 1921, William Flynn 1925, Al Janis/Leo Fraser 1990, Tom Doak 1999

Doak Scale Score - 6.5


Short pitch par three holes like the 12th  (134 yards) on a windy seaside course like Atlantic City can be the ultimate test of ball flight control.

Atlantic City Country Club has a long and esteemed history as everything from the "Birth of the Birdie" to George Crump spying the land for Pine Valley as he rode there on a train.   Interestingly from my biased perspective, it's spine-tingling that both Ab Smith and George Crump (as seen in the following video) had so much to do with the creation of Cobb's Creek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FpzoKArKh0

If that doesn't ring your bell, you may want to check your pulse.   

For most of its history ACCC was primarily a William Flynn design that over time started to lose some luster.   Around the turn of the century Tom Doak was brought in and my understanding is that the owner wanted something punchier and more visually dramatic than the course that had evolved.

I don't have a complete understanding of all the changes made at that time, but the bunkers were definitely made more sand-flashed and prominent while most of the re-routing work was done on the back nine, where the par four tenth and par three 11th were combined into a new par five 10th.   The old 12 & 13 became 11 and 12, while the next par five (13th) hole was extended with a new green about 40 yards back.   

What remained was to create five holes in the space where there used to be four, which then required shortening the next par four and creating a switch-back long par three against the prevailing wind (at least it always seems so when I've played there) and slightly moving the remaining holes to accommodate the needed width.   In my opinion, each of the last five holes (with exception of the 17th, which always seemed squeezed in that corner to me, even prior to Tom's work) are good holes but the sequencing and need to walk back always seemed a bit balky to me.   Still and all, without removing the extensive practice area (where the original 11th seen in the video above was located), I'm not sure there were a lot of good options on a narrow strip of land and in my opinion, keeps ACCC from being the "7" it is up to that point in the round.

If you have any sense of history of the game of golf in the United States, Atlantic City Country Club should be on your short list to play.   Just avoid the summer when the flies are biting.

[V_Halyard]

Mike,


What exactly is missing from the course that prevents it from being a 6.5?

You are just ...   

[Mike Sweeney]

If you have any sense of history of the game of golf in the United States, Atlantic City Country Club should be on your short list to play.   Just avoid the summer when the flies are biting.

This is the course that I think is a little under appreciated by the Philly crowd as it is lots of fun to play, and the clubhouse feels like Sam Snead's living room, in a great way. I would bump it to a 7.


I would also clarify that many courses at the shore near the marsh can be tough for flies with a "bay breeze" in the summer, but are normally fine with an "ocean breeze" during the summer.


Mike - Thanks for the change updates on the back. Now it makes sense.

[Carl Rogers]

Sorry for my late response .... I am now somewhat semi-retired and have the time and means to do some destination golf (impossible on both counts when younger).  Coupled with what I fear will be an increasingly difficult arthritic conditions in the future, I take an attitude that I should make the most of what golf time is left.

[MCirba]

Sorry for my late response .... I am now somewhat semi-retired and have the time and means to do some destination golf (impossible on both counts when younger).  Coupled with what I fear will be an increasingly difficult arthritic conditions in the future, I take an attitude that I should make the most of what golf time is left.

Completely understood, Carl.  I hope you have the opportunity to do so for many more years.


Rest assured there will be some 7 and above scores ahead.

[Ira Fishman]

A most enjoyable thread. Someone should publish a guide to courses within 10 minutes of heavily traveled interstates.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

ACCC is one of those courses that just doesn't comes across on TV and pictures to my eye. I know it has the history and all, but it looks a bit of "this is neat cause its right next to the water" as opposed to the course iteself.  Never been there in person, but perhaps its like Common Ground which was the same, until seeing it in person and "getting it".

Also brings to mind Tony Lema in San Leandro, CA which looks to be a great location and it has terrific views, but the course isn't all that hot...

[Sean_A]

Greate Bay Country Club - Somers Point, NJ

Willie Park/W.H "Pipe" Follett 1923, William Robinson 1926, George & Tom Fazio 1970, Ron Garl 1989, Archie Struthers 2002

From 185 yards, the 13th hole plays to a thimble of a green with bunkers seemingly cut into its very innards.

I have developed a fascination with what I call spread bunkers as seen on the left of the above photo.  I find bunkers such as this often mask the shape and size of the green, but I don't know why.

Happy Hockey

[Peter Pallotta]

Me too, Sean.
I don't wan t to put words in his mouth or get the concept flat-out wrong, but I think that's what Mark B once characterized as a 'carnivorous' bunker (though the one you reference does seem a little less 'hungry' than the examples Mark used, IIRC, from Dr Mac's Australian courses -- though no less good for that) 

[MCirba]

St. David's Golf Club - Wayne, PA

Donald Ross 1927, A.W. Tillinghast 1935, Brian Silva 1995, Ron Prichard 2004,2018

Doak Scale Score - 5


The prototypical Donald Ross downhill tee shot followed by an uphill approach is a common, yet comfortingly familiar theme at St. David's. Note the recently restored top-shot bunker on the par five 8th hole courtesy of Ron Prichard.

St. David's is one of several second-tier, under the radar, very good, and very unsung golf courses in the Philadelphia suburbs that tend to get overshadowed by their more famous brethren.   

With a largely intact and well preserved Donald Ross pedigree, on an  elegant property that is abruptly sloped in a few places, St. David's has an old time Main Line feel that wears like a patched cashmere sweater.

However, like many other courses of its vintage in the area it has also been compromised by the addition of a driving range/practice area such that much like a truncated operatic concerto, the buildup never quite reaches the climax in the end.

In the case of St. David's the practice range adversely affected the last two holes which had been a medium length par four along a hard right boundary and a short par four birdie opportunity to a well protected green.   These have been replaced by a solid if unremarkable par three and an awkward dogleg 18th to that same well protected green.

None of that negates all the good stuff that comes before but it certainly doesn't accent it either.    The course plays in three movements, first on gentle land that could be a course in the English countryside, then falling and rising along a fairly steep slope that cleverly segues with side by side par threes, the long downhill ninth followed by the medium uphill rise of the tenth.   Holes 11 through 16 are across a road and generally make the most of a long, broad fallaway slope before returning to the closers described above.

It's a testament to the greatness of Donald Ross that a course of this high quality was routine to him, and he makes it look easy to this day.

[James Brown]

This is the most enjoyable thread I have read in a while.  It speaks to the joy of discovery.  And of the pleasure of going back to those wonderful discoveries. 



I remember discovering Seaview and Cobbs Creek randomly when in the vicinity many years ago before I really got into GCA.  Both got me thinking in ways I hadn’t before about the game. 

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