[MCirba]

Hi All,

Not sure how well this will go but recently I've been inspired by some of the discussion on Peter P.'s "Frank Discussion" thread and motivated by the very hopeful return to in-depth architectural discussion that's been taking place here in recent weeks.   

So, with that in mind, I've decided to chronologically document and offer a Doak Scale score (with half decimals) and critical summary of the courses I've played in 2019.   First the numbers to date, with hopefully more to come this month;

49 total rounds
42 18-hole rounds
7 9-hole rounds
41 18-hole courses
8 9-hole courses
25 Courses Played for the First Time
20 Course Replays

So, with that business out of the way, let's jump into it.   I've determined that each course should be a separate post so that any subsequent questions or commentary can be properly isolated and focused.   I'm hoping that you'll find these reviews worth your time to read and critique and even argue about if you feel differently.   

A caveat - If I have an obvious bias or sentimental attachment to a particular course I'll make sure I point that out so you can take my words with the proverbial grain of salt.   Likewise, if there is something about a course that I find contrary to where I think the game or golf course architecture should be going I may mark it down more harshly than others might and in those cases I'll also spell it out.   

I'll also include a photograph of each course so you can get a general sense of the aesthetic.   

One last item.   I enjoy playing golf courses from the wonderfully sublime to the atrociously ridiculous so it may be that a course with a rating of, say 2.5 is really a decent, fun, reasonably architected track with a good economic value meant to serve a market and grow the game.   We are not comparing apples and oranges here and not every course aspires to be one of the best in the world.   That doesn't mean we can't learn something from them and appreciate them for what they are.

Cheers.

[Tom_Doak]

Bless you and good luck!

[MCirba]

Seaview Golf Resort (Bay) - Absecon, NJ

Hugh Wilson/William Robinson 1914, Donald Ross 1915, Wilfred Reid/William Connellan 1916,  William & David Gordon 1955, Bob Cupp 1998

Doak Scale - 5.5


The almost limitless variety of sizes and shapes of the bunkers at the Seaview Bay course is a large part of the appeal as seen here with the "Snakepit" bunker on the 16th.

Clarence Geist was an early mega-captain of American industry who grew tired of competing for tee times at nearby Atlantic City CC and determined to build his own course, replete with a palatial clubhouse/hotel that was the talk of Philadelphia society when it opened ostentatiously in 1914, and even more formally audacious with an amateur tournament in the cold winds of January of 1915.

Hugh Wilson fresh from his Merion achievements was brought by Geist to lay out a golf course that originally was supposed to have at least tidal three holes built from reclaimed lands in the Galloway Bay, which all disappeared during a storm while Seaview was under construction.  Given the low-lying property, that may have been for the better as the course has now been there largely unchanged (and with the originally opened routing) for over 100 years.

The everlasting joy of Seaview Bay is the variety of greens, among the most wildly contoured of their time (since somewhat softened by and large), the shapes and sizes of the bunkers, the open, wind-swept landscape, and the playability for every level, with a total of one-forced carry over water.   While not a links, it definitely has links-like characteristics.

The routing is intimate and easily walkable, with views of the Atlantic City skyline across the bay visited multiple times during the round, as the course weaves out to the sea and back inland with clever repetition.

Shortish by today's standards, like most seaside courses Seaview is somewhat dependent on the wind for its challenge, and the LPGA tour players who visit annually generally score quite well during milder summer weather.   For history buffs, nine of the Bay course holes were used with 9 from William Flynn's later Pines course holes during the 1942 PGA Championship won by Sam Snead prior to his induction into WWII .   And admittedly,  once you're aware of the heritage it's difficult to divorce the existing golf course from its sense of historical relevance.

Still, with the smell of the sea air and a bracing breeze coming off the ocean, or during a much-needed winter refuge round, there are not many of these enjoyable antiquities sentimentally recalling a distant past that remain largely unchanged yet thankfully still mostly relevant today.   

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


What exactly is missing from the course that prevents it from being a 6.5?

[MCirba]

Mike,


What exactly is missing from the course that prevents it from being a 6.5?

John K.,

Great question.

Overall, there are just not enough holes that are great golf holes.   Ben Hogan cited the long par four 2nd out to the Bay as one of his very favorites, but that's likely because it required a long-iron approach threaded into a narrow green with tidal rushes on each side of the green.   For most, a layup second is wise.

Also, a number of the very original and creative greens were neutered by the Gordon's in the 1950s, including the 1st which ran steeply away from the golfer with a huge fronting mound, and the punchbowl 5th green cited by George Thomas in his "Golf Architecture in America" book.   

Biggest issue though is that there is not much overall elevation change on the low-lying property so most everything of interest needed to be built by digging down or building up.   As cool as some of those features are, their artifice does often scream out.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike -

I'm going to like any course that so immediately reminds me of one that Sean A might profile, one of the so-called lesser/minor ones on relatively flat sites.

In that context: I found it interesting your response to JK, as to why it doesn't score higher. The lack of a lot of great holes I understand (and take your word for) as a good reason, and the change to the greens I understand too.

But I was surprised by the following rationale, which you describe as the "biggest" reason why Seaview doesn't rate higher for you, i.e. "there is not much overall elevation change on the low-lying property so most everything of interest needed to be built by digging down or building up."

To put it too bluntly: what do you have against building up or digging down to create features?
[You know how I mean that, I'm sure. Honest question: are you downgrading it for lack of 'vistas' and dramatic topography, and/or suggesting that the site wasn't good enough to produce the kind of 'found' holes that tend to be special?]

[MCirba]

Peter,

Another great question, thanks.

My personal bias and preference is for the land to have enough natural features and elevation change for the architect to be able to find some natural golf holes.

There are very few "great" golf courses built on nearly dead flat land.   Even Seminole and the genius of Ross needed a prominent dune ridge to use.   Garden City GC, generally cited as an example of same has extraordinary Hempstead Plain, sand-based, quick draining soil that permitted Travis and Emmet to dig straight down to create pots and coffins and greens largely at the existing subtle grades.   

Seaview soil, while sandy as you move inland, has a lot of bayside muck to deal with so much had to be built up to be viable.  It's a course that probably shouldn't have been routed as ambitiously close to the bay as it was, truth be told.

[Ira Fishman]

Peter,

Another great question, thanks.

My personal bias and preference is for the land to have enough natural features and elevation change for the architect to be able to find some natural golf holes.

There are very few "great" golf courses built on nearly dead flat land.   Even Seminole and the genius of Ross needed a prominent dune ridge to use.   Garden City GC, generally cited as an example of same has extraordinary Hempstead Plain, sand-based, quick draining soil that permitted Travis and Emmet to dig straight down to create pots and coffins and greens largely at the existing subtle grades.   

Seaview soil, while sandy as you move inland, has a lot of bayside muck to deal with so much had to be built up to be viable.  It's a course that probably shouldn't have been routed as ambitiously close to the bay as it was, truth be told.

As much as a Ross fan as I am, Seaview is a nice resort play but no more.


Ira

[MCirba]

Ira Fishman,


Ross drew up a set of recommendations to the existing course, only some (say 20%) were ever actually implemented.


The routing and most of the primary hazard design ideas were from Hugh Wilson working onsite with Atlantic City CC pro William Robinson.


WWI may have factored into the failure to utilize more of Ross's ideas but truthfully, I'm not sure they would have been that impactful.

[Ira Fishman]

Agree. Just not a great site or course. But a fun place to play.


Ira

[MCirba]

One thing I should mention is that Wilson implemented the "great hazard" par five second shot crossing concept stolen from the Old Course Hell Bunker on what is today's 9th hole at Seaview.


Given the timing (1913) it's interesting to consider whether he or Tilly (on steroids at PV #7) utilized it first in the Philly region. 


Arguably, Wilson's first was at the 4th at Merion East a few years earlier.

[MCirba]

Agree. Just not a great site or course. But a fun place to play.


Ira

Ira,


Agreed, thanks.


And everyone reading my opinions should know upfront that I have a very high favorability bias in appreciation of the "fun factor". 

[Peter Pallotta]

Interesting, Mike - and it touches on Mark's thread.
There was Hugh Wilson, pretty fresh off the opportunities (and kind of challenges) that Merion presented, coming to Seaview and to a totally different set of challenges (and 'opportunities'). 
Maybe the early American architects were in general better at 'finding' than 'building', and/or maybe that's why CBM-Raynor went the template route, i.e. if you're gonna build them, then throw out any notion of 'finding' and just create/copy (for lack of a better word) the best.   

[MCirba]

Peter,

Hugh Wilson had no real desire for golf course architecture to be be anything but an avocation, except perhaps for his home club at Merion where he accepted the role he was assigned in the creation of the new course(s), likely as Chairman of the Green Committee.

However, the prominence of his role in that successful effort suddenly thrust him into the spotlight as one of the only men in the Philly area who had insight into what was required to build and grow-in an "ideal golf course" as popularized at the time by Macdonald at NGLA, and he was too nice of a man to turn down outreaches by other clubs.

Even so, shortly after his work at Merion East and West, followed by Philmont , Seaview, and North Hills, in December of 1914 he resigned as Chair of the Merion Green Committee citing demands of business.  His young family was also likely a factor.

Despite his sincere intent to rein in his golf architectural activities, events would soon conspire against him and before long he was once again eyeballs deep.

[Mike Sweeney]

If there is a winter Philly outing, I vote for The Bay as I have not played it for years and this is a really intriguing picture on a "Doak 5.5". Great post.

[Joe Bausch]

More photos of Seaview Bay, a course I love:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/SeaviewBay/index.html

[MCirba]

Peter,

Hugh Wilson had no real desire for golf course architecture to be be anything but an avocation, except perhaps for his home club at Merion where he accepted the role he was assigned in the creation of the new course(s), likely as Chairman of the Green Committee.

However, the prominence of his role in that successful effort suddenly thrust him into the spotlight as one of the only men in the Philly area who had insight into what was required to build and grow-in an "ideal golf course" as popularized at the time by Macdonald at NGLA, and he was too nice of a man to turn down outreaches by other clubs.

Even so, shortly after his work at Merion East and West, followed by Philmont , Seaview, and North Hills, in December of 1914 he resigned as Chair of the Merion Green Committee citing demands of business.  His young family was also likely a factor.

Despite his sincere intent to rein in his golf architectural activities, events would soon conspire against him and before long he was once again eyeballs deep.

Ooops...and a little place called Cobb's Creek in Philadelphia, found by Wilson's committee in 1913 and routed (multiple plans drawn) in 1914.   

[MCirba]

Cobb's Creek Golf Course - Philadelphia, PA

Hugh Wilson/Ab Smith/George Crump/George Klaudner/J. Franklin Meehan w Wiliam Flynn/Walter Travis 1915, Garrett Renn/George Fazio 1953

Doak Scale - 4.5


Sometimes compared to the famous 11th at nearby Merion, both courses share the same creek but the one at this municipal course preceded Merion's creek hole by almost a decade.

Given my personal involvement with the ongoing restoration efforts at Cobb's Creek, I'm going to limit my commentary here with your kind understanding.

I would mention that during the 1950s approximately 15% of the golf course property was taken over by an Air Defense Base replete with big artillery guns that forced a squeezed re-routing of a third of the holes.   Add in the fact that no capital infrastructure investment  has been available since the mid-1950s and there is a lot to recover here.   The great news is that all of the original greensites are still in existence.

Needless to say, all involved see incredible potential we hope to soon realize.

[MCirba]

Ed "Porky" Oliver Golf Course - Wilmington, DE

Henry Tatnall/J. Ernest Smith/John Reid 1901, Wilfred Reid 1916, Donald Ross 1922, Alfred Tull 1950, Edmund Ault 1971

Doak Scale Rating - 3.5


Disaster looms early on the 452 yard par four 3rd, with OB in the form of Green Hill Road extending down the entire left side.   It's unlikely this hole could be built today given liability considerations and it's somewhat amazing it still exists. 

Today's modest clubhouse provides little hint that these grounds in the wealthy section of "Green Hill" in Wilmington, Delaware served as the original golf links of the Wilmington Country Club, hosting the likes of Harry Vardon, Ted Ray, and Bobby Jones over the years.  It even hosted the 1913 U.S Women's Amateur tournament.   Despite that illustrious history, it was only when the DuPont family stepped in during 1958 to save this as a public course later named after local golf hero Ed "Porky" Oliver that it's future was assured.

A host of architects have had a hand in the course that exists today, but the biggest changes came in the 60s when land was sold to Delaware University for a local campus that caused a significant change to several holes.   

Playing short at 6,200 yards and a par 70, there are still any number of solid holes, and a few terrific greens still in existence that belie the expertise applied over the decades.  The temptation of the 290 yard par four 12th to a devilishly raised target followed by a 143 yard par three to a sliver of a green is probably the highlight, but there is sound, enjoyable golf throughout.

[Bernie Bell]

"sound, enjoyable golf throughout."
Golf as it Ault to be . . .

[Jim Sherma]

Mike - really looking forward to seeing this thread play out. Sorry we could not get together this year for a round as life got in the way. You have a great overview in assessing courses due to the sheer number of them that you've played, as well as the variety up and down the food chain. Some of the ex post comparisons between the highs and lows will should be fun.

[Carl Rogers]

Why go to all the time, hassle & expense of travel to play any course that is not at least a Doak 7?
With some re-work, could these courses bump up a couple of levels?
Sorry to be the wet blanket.

[Chris Mavros]

Peter,

Hugh Wilson had no real desire for golf course architecture to be be anything but an avocation, except perhaps for his home club at Merion where he accepted the role he was assigned in the creation of the new course(s), likely as Chairman of the Green Committee.

However, the prominence of his role in that successful effort suddenly thrust him into the spotlight as one of the only men in the Philly area who had insight into what was required to build and grow-in an "ideal golf course" as popularized at the time by Macdonald at NGLA, and he was too nice of a man to turn down outreaches by other clubs.

Even so, shortly after his work at Merion East and West, followed by Philmont , Seaview, and North Hills, in December of 1914 he resigned as Chair of the Merion Green Committee citing demands of business.  His young family was also likely a factor.

Despite his sincere intent to rein in his golf architectural activities, events would soon conspire against him and before long he was once again eyeballs deep.

Ooops...and a little place called Cobb's Creek in Philadelphia, found by Wilson's committee in 1913 and routed (multiple plans drawn) in 1914.   

Mike, out of curiosity, how about Phoenixville for Wilson?  1915?

[Bernie Bell]

Time, hassle, expense?  Porky Oliver is max 5 minutes off I-95 and can be played currently for $25.  Not sure what it is on a peak weekend.  Not much.  Some golfers see good value there; others wouldn't soil their shoes.  De gustibus non est disputandum.  Personally, I'm excited for the rest of this thread, regardless of "Doak level." 

[Kalen Braley]

Why go to all the time, hassle & expense of travel to play any course that is not at least a Doak 7?
With some re-work, could these courses bump up a couple of levels?
Sorry to be the wet blanket.

Carl,

Mike did qualify this in the last paragraph of his initial post.  And I think its a fantastic approach, every golf outing doesn't need to be high value DS courses to have a great time:

One last item.   I enjoy playing golf courses from the wonderfully sublime to the atrociously ridiculous so it may be that a course with a rating of, say 2.5 is really a decent, fun, reasonably architected track with a good economic value meant to serve a market and grow the game.   We are not comparing apples and oranges here and not every course aspires to be one of the best in the world.   That doesn't mean we can't learn something from them and appreciate them for what they are.

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