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Re:Impressions of the Old Course in Reverse
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2007, 07:04:24 PM »
A simple question for everyone who has posted so far: how much of your interest in the Reverse course is down to novelty value and historical curiosity and how much is really down to the merit of the course? Be really honest with yourself.

(When I played TROC a few years ago, it scored high on the first two points, but in architectural terms, it was a different story. How could you possibly have a linksland course with so many forced aerial approaches to greens canted in the opposite direction? I'm trying to think of the Doak rating I'd give might just about be one of those "0-6" courses that has some merit but enough over-the-top goofiness to make you wonder what the designer was smoking.)



Re:Impressions of the Old Course in Reverse
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2007, 12:49:32 AM »
Re: yardage guides

I am planning to create a wiki-like site on the reverse old course.  It'll probably take shape next week.

All of the good yardage guides are clearly copyrighted, so I don't think it's likely that I would put them up.  David Coyne did the guide for the reverse, based off of his excellent "Pro Caddie" guide of The Old Course.

I'll come up with someway to get a good sense of the routing hopefully annotating Microsoft Live maps with images I took, and with data available in the public domain  :)

Doug Siebert

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Re:Impressions of the Old Course in Reverse
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2007, 02:29:36 AM »

the green was originally a double green (see Adrian Stiff's response to my Road Hole thread).  The waist of the green is Bridget Bardot in size, pinched by the road hole bunker and the road.  These hazards and the firm greens render any aerial attack as incompetent, which enables the safety required for sharing such a green.

The road is a wonderful diagonal hazard, waiting to catch a slightly thinly struck shot on the left hand first hole (which is always a chance from tight fairways) or a shot played away from the road hole bunker.

As a double green, the #17 back pin behind the road hole bunker (the one which makes a dogleg green from the front left, and presumably started Tommy Nakajima's excellent adventure in 1977?) is not available.

James B


Ah, I had skimmed that thread but hadn't got that the green as it exists today was a double green.  Were the others much smaller than they are today, or was that green just an aberration in its tiny size compared to the rest?

It would seem to me that it would be an easier approach in the reverse, due to the hole being shorter and not playing directly over the Road Bunker.  An aerial attack might not be advisable, but I think it would be more successful to that green in the reverse than in the normal direction.

While it is foolhardy to play over the Road Bunker in the normal direction, I did exactly that last time I was there in 2001.  I hit a 7 iron from the wispy rough in the left fairway from about 170, with the pin towards the back left of the green such that I was aiming directly over the bunker (intending to allow the right to left wind to move the ball to the pin)  I played about the best shot I could with that club, carried it to a perfect spot just over the bunker and it appeared for a moment that it might hold the green, but the ball wouldn't stop and dribbled off the back of the green onto the blacktop (but I did chip it to a foot for par from the blacktop)  I rely much more on height than backspin for my stopping power with irons so I have a feeling that someone else who really hits hard down on the ball, perhaps playing with a slightly shorter club, could do it.

Not that it still wouldn't be foolish, but I think its doable.
My hovercraft is full of eels.


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Re:Impressions of the Old Course in Reverse
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2007, 03:53:21 AM »
Doug- All the greens were much smaller pre 1870, mainly they were the middle areas of the current doubles. As there was more play, came the need for wider fairways to accomadate outgoing and incoming play, the greens wideneded some by many times their original size, its possible even the 17th was smaller as a double pre 1870. When TM built the new 1st and developed the routing we know of today, the 17th as a double green no longer existed, so would not have been extended in the same way the others were. From 1870 St. Andrews was almost a new course with the widened routing, there could be a lot of reason to credit Old Tom as the architect.
A few other points that may or not be true. (I was told this via one of the Aytons's)
I think the reverse route that was used 100 years ago did not play to the 1st green or to the 6th green, ie the current 17th and the current 12th played over shared fairway, the area to the left was very heathery.
I read once that the 1885 Open championship was played over the reverse route.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.


Re:Impressions of the Old Course in Reverse
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2007, 12:25:20 PM »
BTW, you can buy the reverse course guide (and a forward one too) at David Coyne's website:

He's got an image of 6 holes from his reverse guide here:

Well worth the dough.

James Bennett

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Re: Impressions of the Old Course in Reverse
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2019, 03:52:22 AM »
For Adrian Stiff - he was wondering how we actually found the experience.Some impressive recollections above!
James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Neil Regan

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Re: Impressions of the Old Course in Reverse
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2019, 06:37:14 PM »
Right here on GCA.
Iím not sure exactly when this was done.
I think about 2002.
And Iím not sure how exactly it follows the actual routing played and soon to be played again.
But it is a very interesting Hole-by-Hole tour, with photos, aerials, and simulations.

The Reverse Old Course by Jeremy Glenn
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed


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