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Mike_Clayton

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Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2019, 10:46:47 PM »
Hogan picked it over the MacGregor (when he was contracted to M) in the early 1950s . The ' Then why don't you enter the testing machine in the US Open' story!

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2019, 10:57:53 PM »
Currently there are a lot of us who think the recent rules changes are absolutely silly and certainly not needed at all, but we soldier on-even putting the pin back in for the flawed stat believer who thinks it's going to help him on his 6 footer, and we accept the player's word because we have to when he explains his "intent" when he avoids a penalty for something that actually did happen.
It's off topic… but then again, this feels like it's turning into another bifurcation topic… Anyway, if you could, briefly… IMO the 2019 Rules don't really add "intent" throughout the Rules. Where do you feel this has been markedly increased? Where has this been changed significantly?

My point is, just like the RIDICULOUS local option that the USGA suggests for lost balls (that nobody uses-why would you add TWO when most simply throw down a ball and add ONE) The USGA should not be involved in LOCAL rules-that's why they call them local
I'm not sure you understand what "Local Rules" are. They're not - and never have been - for doing whatever "local" thing you want. They cannot re-write or undermine or change the basic Rules of the game. The types of things Local Rules can change is fairly narrow.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2019, 02:31:08 AM »
Currently there are a lot of us who think the recent rules changes are absolutely silly and certainly not needed at all, but we soldier on-even putting the pin back in for the flawed stat believer who thinks it's going to help him on his 6 footer, and we accept the player's word because we have to when he explains his "intent" when he avoids a penalty for something that actually did happen.
It's off topic… but then again, this feels like it's turning into another bifurcation topic… Anyway, if you could, briefly… IMO the 2019 Rules don't really add "intent" throughout the Rules. Where do you feel this has been markedly increased? Where has this been changed significantly?

My point is, just like the RIDICULOUS local option that the USGA suggests for lost balls (that nobody uses-why would you add TWO when most simply throw down a ball and add ONE) The USGA should not be involved in LOCAL rules-that's why they call them local
I'm not sure you understand what "Local Rules" are. They're not - and never have been - for doing whatever "local" thing you want. They cannot re-write or undermine or change the basic Rules of the game. The types of things Local Rules can change is fairly narrow.


dropping a putter on the ball accidentally ON the green is not a penalty-dropping it OFF the green is.I need to know their intent.
Kicking it in the rough while searching vs, kicking it out of a bad lie-I need to know their intent.
A ball moving at rest on the green-I need to know whether the player "caused it to move" even tohugh we agree it moved after he player addressed it.


"Inttent" is the phrase that was used when it was determined that Bernhard and MacCarron weren't violating the anchorig rule, even though they were as written (to be fair, not part of new rules-just another stupid new rule)


You may well be right about my knowledge of USGA governed local rules, but I have yet to play in an event where they invoked the local rule involving dropping with a two shot penalty, and can barely imagine ever taking that option--it might make sense if it became your only option once you had vacated the area of the original shot without playing a provisional.Nowadays I ALWAYS hit a provisional as it is way too easy to lose a ball that potentially strikes a limb or is hard to watch down,ina 3 minute search which your playing partners may have barely even had reason to come over to help in such a short period of time. The 3 minute part should also have been a LOCAL rule option as it has its own unintended consequences.Perhaps the 3 minute rule should have been paired with the new 2 shot drop rule for those who did not hit a provisional.


While we're at it-moving stones and limbs in a "penalty area" is absurd-what's next? abnormal groung conditions?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2019, 02:53:22 AM »
Isn't the removal of stones/shells in bunkers one of the things the R&A & USGA recently agreed upon?  This might be another case of bifurcation being a good idea.  Pros get no removal rights because their clubs are free.  I get removal rights because I want to use my irons for longer than 6 months.

People list slow play, cost etc as reasons why folks don't take up golf.  I think rules & traditional behaviour are a huge negative for golf.  Hence the reason why so many people ignore the rules and do what works for them.  Bifurcation already exists in a huge way...its just that hard core golfers call the folks who play their own games cheaters.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2019, 04:41:23 AM »
Ever play a boring parkland? Ever play a boring links?
Just asking.

Atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2019, 06:45:09 AM »
Sean,
The new rules(both R&A and USGA) allow the removal of loose impediments(including stones, rocks. limbs etc.) in what are now called "penalty areas", which used to be known as water hazards before the geniuses changed the wording for some unknown reason.

I'm not quibbling about moving rocks or stones in bunkers.


But you kind've proved my point in the lunacy of the rules changes by being an incredibly well traveled golfer, who no doubt plays a match or two who hasn't learned the new rules (nor should you have to have relearned what was never broken)
As you cite, another form of self bifurcation.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 06:50:13 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2019, 07:04:43 AM »
Jeff

So far as I recall, you could always remove stones in GB&I bunkers. It's the USGA who just came on board. That isn't important other than to point out bifurcation has always been around.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2019, 07:17:05 AM »
Jeff

So far as I recall, you could always remove stones in GB&I bunkers. It's the USGA who just came on board. That isn't important other than to point out bifurcation has always been around.

Ciao


exactly-bifurcation has always been around in one form or another-now masked as "conditions of competition" for rules such as 2010 groove rule
as far as stones the US came on board with local rules to that effect in most professional events and recently when the rules were redone the USGA and R&A did all the changes together.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2019, 10:43:05 AM »
I’d never thought of that, Jeff — ie that the 2010 groove rule as a ‘condition of competition’ is a clear form of bifurcation. My new favourite irons (btw, for me the Ping s58 are great clubs) I can continue to use, but only because I’m not a tour pro or a competitive amateur playing in USGA events.
With your post, it suddenly doesn’t seem too much of a stretch to imagine, say, a differently dimpled golf ball being mandated as a ‘condition of competition’, and golfers like me not giving it a second thought.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 10:44:56 AM by Peter Pallotta »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2019, 10:55:15 AM »
I’d never thought of that, Jeff — ie that the 2010 groove rule as a ‘condition of competition’ is a clear form of bifurcation. My new favourite irons (btw, for me the Ping s58 are great clubs) I can continue to use, but only because I’m not a tour pro or a competitive amateur playing in USGA events.
With your post, it suddenly doesn’t seem too much of a stretch to imagine, say, a differently dimpled golf ball being mandated as a ‘condition of competition’, and golfers like me not giving it a second thought.


Of course we have always had bifurcation
different sized balls up until the 70's
now conditions of competition
DIFFERENT TEES!


Bifurcation is  not the issue(just a lame defense)-it's aging men not wanting to give up their store bought yards....and whored out professionals/manufacturers.....while we continue to wreck the scale and playability of courses in "defense"
I can't tell you how many golf type people I know who tell me how boring watching TV golf has become-I do because it's my one of my jobs and the nonmajors are mainly a snoozefest (with a few great exceptions/stories this year)



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2019, 07:07:48 PM »
The original acushnet ball was horrible. I can't quite put my finger on the year that Titleist started to dominate.


This is actually a pretty good article but it does not drill down on the specific date:


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-the-titleist-pro-v1-revolu


For decades, top golfers had all played with balls constructed in the same way: A liquid-filled rubber core was wound with thin rubber thread, building the ball up to the correct diameter as if it was a ball of yarn. This was covered with balata, a type of rubber harvested from a tropical tree called the bully tree.

____________

In my claim to fame of my life as a Rhode Island Golf Caddy, I once had dinner with the son of the family that supplied Titleist with the "thin rubber thread" in the pre-Pro-V era. It was literally right around the time of the switch and the son was packing it in. Honestly, he was a nice guy, and yes he belonged to a fancy club.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 07:11:58 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2019, 07:56:30 PM »
Mike Clayton -

I thought Ben Hogan played with a Spalding Dot golf ball.

http://thegolfauction.com/ben_hogan_1948_us_open_at_riviera_cc_championship_-lot42635.aspx

DT

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2019, 05:09:17 AM »
David,


He clearly did in 1948 but by the early 50s he was using a Titleist.


'That could explain why Hogan openly played with a Titleist golf ball at the 1953 Masters, 2 months before his meeting with Cowan at MacGregor headquarters.'


The Longest Shot. Neil Sagebiel.
(The story of Jack Fleck's 1955 U.S Open win)

« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 05:20:50 AM by Mike_Clayton »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2019, 08:05:28 AM »
dropping a putter on the ball accidentally ON the green is not a penalty-dropping it OFF the green is.I need to know their intent.
That's not intent. That's geography. Clearly a person wasn't making a stroke at a ball by "dropping their putter," especially when they're entitled to mark, lift, and clean it.

Kicking it in the rough while searching vs, kicking it out of a bad lie-I need to know their intent.
Their intent is clear - they're searching. Furthermore, in both cases, the player must replace the ball. So kicking it and claiming accidental doesn't result in any change - they must bury their ball back in the same lie they had.

A ball moving at rest on the green-I need to know whether the player "caused it to move" even tohugh we agree it moved after he player addressed it.
That's got virtually nothing to do with intent.

"Inttent" is the phrase that was used when it was determined that Bernhard and MacCarron weren't violating the anchorig rule, even though they were as written (to be fair, not part of new rules-just another stupid new rule)
That's the only one you've managed to come up with.

but I have yet to play in an event where they invoked the local rule involving dropping with a two shot penalty
That's a rule for league and casual play. It speeds things up for people who don't think to hit a provisional.

The 3 minute part should also have been a LOCAL rule option as it has its own unintended consequences.
I disagree (and this has nothing to do with intent either). Three minutes speeds up play.

While we're at it-moving stones and limbs in a "penalty area" is absurd-what's next? abnormal groung conditions?
That simplifies the Rules. And I don't know what your problem with "abnormal ground conditions" is, which is now "abnormal course conditions."

exactly-bifurcation has always been around in one form or another-now masked as "conditions of competition" for rules such as 2010 groove rule

If you're so desperate to claim that bifurcation has always existed as a means of suggesting it would be easier to actually bifurcate in the future, then surely you must recognize that conditions of the competition (like the groove rule, which at this point everyone is following whether they know it or not, given the manufacturing limits dating back to… 2010? 2011?) angle is several orders of magnitude different than what people mean when they talk about actual bifurcation of equipment, etc.


as far as stones the US came on board with local rules to that effect in most professional events and recently when the rules were redone the USGA and R&A did all the changes together.

The USGA/R&A have done "all the changes together" since the 80s. The R&A resisted the embedded ball rule through the green (now general area) until 2019, too, when that was made the Rule and the Local Rule allows you to limit it to the fairway height or lower areas.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2019, 08:14:14 AM »


While we're at it-moving stones and limbs in a "penalty area" is absurd-what's next? abnormal groung conditions?
That simplifies the Rules. And I don't know what your problem with "abnormal ground conditions" is, which is now "abnormal course conditions."





My point was soon(if not already-you're far more up to snuff on the new rules) enough we'll get relief from abnormal course conditions in a "penalty area" where it shuld be absolutely "normal" to be unable to play the ball and/or have a complete shite lie.

Teeing it up everywhere would simplify the rules as well. Heck nobody would ever incur a penalty with the ball out of play until we hit it. Why does everything have to be "simple" (dumbed down)in a complex game.
I've watched players remove enough stomes and rocks in a "penalty area" to hit a wood out of a lie that formerly would've simply been a chip out or drop. simple yes-as in simpleton
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2019, 08:27:24 AM »
The original acushnet ball was horrible. I can't quite put my finger on the year that Titleist started to dominate.


This is actually a pretty good article but it does not drill down on the specific date:


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-the-titleist-pro-v1-revolu


For decades, top golfers had all played with balls constructed in the same way: A liquid-filled rubber core was wound with thin rubber thread, building the ball up to the correct diameter as if it was a ball of yarn. This was covered with balata, a type of rubber harvested from a tropical tree called the bully tree.

____________

In my claim to fame of my life as a Rhode Island Golf Caddy, I once had dinner with the son of the family that supplied Titleist with the "thin rubber thread" in the pre-Pro-V era. It was literally right around the time of the switch and the son was packing it in. Honestly, he was a nice guy, and yes he belonged to a fancy club.


Mike,


This is a more accurate article on the history of the Titleist ball. Interesting that 73 and 75 are pivotal years. The ball I didn't like was the club special. Funny, a major breakthrough was something so simple as improved paint.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfmagic.com/news/equipment-news/titleist-pro-v1-ball-evolution-of-a-legend/20817%3famp

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2019, 08:31:23 AM »
The new rules appear to have been written specifically for those that don't think.




« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 08:33:40 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2019, 09:17:10 AM »
The only game left is how much. With every group on the course playing a different set of rules how many is obsolete.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2019, 11:34:09 AM »
Jk Makes a great point here.

 Local hacks and weekend warriors are gonna do whatever they want anyways using illegal clubs and balls, improper drops, foot wedges, etc....why not just have one set of rules for Pros and Top Am events and a looser set for everyone else.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2019, 12:20:58 PM »
Jk Makes a great point here.

 Local hacks and weekend warriors are gonna do whatever they want anyways using illegal clubs and balls, improper drops, foot wedges, etc....why not just have one set of rules for Pros and Top Am events and a looser set for everyone else.


perfect and stop changing the rules to suit/simplify those who don't bother anyway
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2019, 02:34:59 PM »
Given that we did some history on this thread, I thought one of cooler aspects of the Open being at an old links course is that a guy who looks like a "throwback" to when not every player looked as if they live in the gym won the Championship.


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2019, 03:14:36 PM »
Given that we did some history on this thread, I thought one of cooler aspects of the Open being at an old links course is that a guy who looks like a "throwback" to when not every player looked as if they live in the gym won the Championship.
Ira
Yes - and to harken back to my own earlier post, I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Shane looks like a ‘throwback’ and more importantly *played* like a throwback, ie like a modern day version of Harry Bradshaw, because that’s what the course and the architecture — in its purity, despite the two (note: two) changes and the internal OB — suggested to a smart player.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2019, 05:46:00 PM »
You mean when he shot a 290 on Portrush in 1947 to win the Irish Open when it was playing what almost 1000 yards shorter...

Compared to Lowrys 269 from the beastie tees?

Apples and oranges....

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2019, 11:22:43 AM »
You mean when he shot a 290 on Portrush in 1947 to win the Irish Open when it was playing what almost 1000 yards shorter...

Compared to Lowrys 269 from the beastie tees?

Apples and oranges....


apples and oranges perhaps, but had a lot more to do with wind tunnels,technology and labs than work at a gym
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No Wind, Weather... No Test... Shooting Gallery...
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2019, 11:44:54 AM »
You mean when he shot a 290 on Portrush in 1947 to win the Irish Open when it was playing what almost 1000 yards shorter...

Compared to Lowrys 269 from the beastie tees?

Apples and oranges....

apples and oranges perhaps, but had a lot more to do with wind tunnels,technology and labs than work at a gym

Jeff completely agreed,

and given its such a relatively easy fix with a limited flight ball, its the only thing needed to restore sanity to competitive golf...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 11:48:21 AM by Kalen Braley »

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