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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: CAVENDISH GC - A Trip Through Time.
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2019, 04:33:21 AM »


It looks like one tee on 18 could see the green and the further one right couldn't.  Regardless, do you think the hole would be better if the sightline was opened up?




Sean,


Opening up the sightline from tee to green is not really a realistic proposition. The hole curves around a long established woodland that pre-dates the course. The white line on the photo below is the direct line from tee to green.


Cavendish#18a by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

The red line is the route along the fairway - one of the finest inland fairways in UK golf both in terms of the turf and the fabulous roller-coaster undulations.

Already, the flat bellies cut the corner by driving over the trees and along the line of the road and are generally rewarded with an easy short iron to the green from a decent lie in the semi rough or a free drop off the road. This route is unavailable to average golfers who cannot hope to clear the trees and is indicated by the yellow line.

The difference in difficulty of the hole between a very strong player and an average player is IMO too pronounced. The beauty of the hole is its dog legging nature and the quality of the fairway. By opening up the view of the green the nature of the hole would be altered completely and much of its appeal lost as everyone took the more direct line along the road.

MacKenzie's intention was clearly for the hole to be played as a par 4/bogey 5 dogleg following an expansive and majestic fairway. For this to be altered substantially would be a great pity IMO.

I would like to see some bunkering or waste areas introduced by the road to discourage the direct line, or to allow heavy rough to grow immediately on the right hand side of the road, providing an element of risk and reward. Currently there is 20 yards of short grass before the rough starts on the RHS giving the flat bellies plenty (too much?) to aim at.


There is even a strong case for making the line of the road OOB. That would certainly concentrate a few minds!

Edited to add;

The other aspect of course, is Health and Safety.

The road is a public right of way and is well used by hikers, joggers, and dog walkers, not to mention vehicles accessing the farm at the far end of the course.

The further play can kept away from the road and out to the left along the fairway the less are the chances of a serious incident.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 04:51:58 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: CAVENDISH GC - A Trip Through Time.
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2019, 05:10:42 AM »
Duncan

Thanks for the reply.  There is certainly a precedent for making areas around public paths OOB, especially if guys are whacking over trees blindly....which really is an argument for removing the trees if safety is truly an issue. Its almost always best to offer two-way sight lines for the sake of safety. A sign at the start of the path on golf property wouldn't go amiss either.  I am somewhat surprised this hasn't already been a strong consideration by the club.  Once a safety issue is flagged, the club has a duty to mitigate the situation or face dire consequences should something awful happen.

If the trees cannot be cut because of preservation orders etc, then if safety is a real concern, maybe the tees should be moved further left so people on the path can be seen?

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 05:35:57 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: CAVENDISH GC - A Trip Through Time.
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2019, 05:31:29 AM »
Duncan

Thanks for the reply.  There is certainly a precedent for making areas around public paths OOB, especially if guys are whacking over trees blindly....which really is an argument for removing the trees if safety is truly an issue. Its almost always best to offer two-way sight lines for the sake of safety. A sign at the start of the path on golf property wouldn't go amiss either.  I am somewhat surprised this hasn't already been a strong consideration by the club.  Once a safety issue is flagged, the club has a duty to mitigate the situation or face dire consequences should something awful happen.

If the trees cannot be cut because of preservation orders etc, then if safety is a real concern, maybe the tees should be moved further right so people on the path can be seen?

Ciao


There are already signs on the road as the property is entered warning of flying golf balls. There is also a bell which users of the path are asked to ring before proceeding further in order to announce their presence.


I take your point about tree removal aiding safety by clearing sight lines. I have made the same argument myself many times. I'm not sure however, that removing hundreds of mature trees in this case would ever gain the approval of members if alternative strategies could be found.

There is not much opportunity to move the tees to the left as the ground falls away severely to a stream.

There is no obvious H&S issue if tee shots are played across the road and onto the wide fairway. There is ample visibility of road users. It is shots played along the road, and just as significantly second shots played from by the road over a rise behind which road users are unseen, that causes me concern.


This has reminded me to discuss this with the club director responsible for H&S.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 05:46:28 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: CAVENDISH GC - A Trip Through Time.
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2019, 05:49:13 AM »
Duncan

Yes, I have seen second shots near or past the path.  It doesn't help that the land moves toward the path.  Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where modern equipment has essentially created the possibility of a dangerous situation.  Until golfers smarten up and not intentionally hit blindly in a direction where people may be, its seems to me the club should be bending over backwards to make the situation as safe as reasonably possible. I don't think building new tees left would be terribly onerous and it is probably a better solution than removing trees, though both could be done.  While I don't like OOB as a general rule, safety is more important and so the path and beyond should probably be made OOB. Of course, that doesn't stop bad shots, but at least more golfers would aim further left off the tee.  At least toward the 1st is only golfers  8)  These big hitters, what happens when they stray left?  Does the house get hit on approach shots?

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CAVENDISH GC - A Trip Through Time.
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2019, 06:08:03 AM »
Personally, I think making the path and beyond OOB could actually improve the hole as well as being a sensible H&S measure. In essence, the path would be the mirror image of the stone wall on #14, and serve exactly the same function. While not on the perimeter of the property, the road marks a logical boundary of the playing area and so would not fall into the dreaded category of "internal OOB".


On reviewing the best photo I could find of the tee shot, I am beginning to concur with your idea of trimming back the trees, at least to reveal a view of the clubhouse and more of the road.


 18b by duncan cheslett, on Flickr


The photo is not a perfect representation, as it is taken from well in front of the daily tees. The medal tee is some 80 yards further back, in an Augustaesque  tunnel of trees.


And yes, the clubhouse does get hit on occasion. Warning signs are prominent on the terrace that members and guests sit there at their own risk.


Only last month a ball went straight through the boardroom window on the second floor. It was hit by a visitor - a left handed slicer. They seem to cause a disproportionate number of problems!  ;D
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 06:21:23 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Pete Lavallee

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Re: CAVENDISH GC - A Trip Through Time.
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2019, 03:31:20 AM »
Thank you Duncan and ATB for a fantastic and educational tour! My wife and I played a round here several years ago and I still vividly remember each and every hole; surely a sign of great design when the memory remains intact over time. We also found Buxton to be quite a charming spa town. I am quite curious as to why the Club’s crest has a snake in it though?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CAVENDISH GC - A Trip Through Time.
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2019, 06:31:27 AM »
Thank you Duncan and ATB for a fantastic and educational tour! My wife and I played a round here several years ago and I still vividly remember each and every hole; surely a sign of great design when the memory remains intact over time. We also found Buxton to be quite a charming spa town. I am quite curious as to why the Club’s crest has a snake in it though?


Pete,


I agree completely that being able to remember every hole years later is a hallmark of a great design. Cavendish is most certainly such a course. I'm so pleased that you and your wife enjoyed it and look forward to your return!


The emblems of the Cavendish family - the Dukes of Devonshire - are a buck's head and a serpent. Hence the club crest.




Duncan Cheslett

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Re: CAVENDISH GC - A Trip Through Time.
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2019, 06:40:19 AM »
This is the actual view of the 18th from the medal tee. The carry to the fairway is about 150 yards.


Cav18 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

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