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V. Kmetz

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Origins/Styles of some Templates
« on: June 19, 2019, 10:14:24 AM »
1. What shot style or original hole(s) are being referenced by LEVEN? How is 17 NGLA likened to the originals?


2. .... MAIDEN?


3. Is a VALLEY hole a specific CBM creation from/of NGLA, and then a term used to describe a similar hole later on? Or is there a previous model?


4. Are there other SAHARA holes at all? Any with the driveable (sub 300) features of #2 NGLA?


5. Are there other CHANNEL or LIDO holes (whether they involve water or not)?


6. Why is #8 Yale called a CAPE? While I understand the nature of the banked green contours/orientation, that hole lingers as more of a straight hole from the tee, with no real "risk bite" to make by cutting a dogleg as a normal Cape might suggest.
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"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Bernie Bell

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Re: Origins/Styles of some Templates
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2019, 10:50:31 AM »
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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Origins/Styles of some Templates
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2019, 11:30:08 AM »
The original cape referred to the green jutting out. It didn’t refer to the tee shot at all.


I believe Andy Johnson taught us (or at least me) that.
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Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Origins/Styles of some Templates
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2019, 11:35:43 AM »
Quote from: Erik J. Barzeski on June 19, 2019, 11:30:08 AM
The original cape referred to the green jutting out. It didn’t refer to the tee shot at all.


I believe Andy Johnson taught us (or at least me) that.


You're giving credit to the wrong person.  Andy does a good job, but everything he does is built on the work of others.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,3060.0.html
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

V. Kmetz

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Re: Origins/Styles of some Templates
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2019, 05:09:23 PM »
Quote from: Erik J. Barzeski on June 19, 2019, 11:30:08 AM
The original cape referred to the green jutting out. It didn’t refer to the tee shot at all.

I believe Andy Johnson taught us (or at least me) that.


My remark was going to be just as Sven's ancient thread link (thank you Sven) revealed...that if it is indeed the green that makes a Cape, then #2 would certainly deserve the Cape name for Yale, rather than the moniker "Pit", with #8 being the Cape... this is precisely why I asked my question.
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"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Origins/Styles of some Templates
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2019, 08:53:05 PM »
Quote from: Sven Nilsen on June 19, 2019, 11:35:43 AM
You're giving credit to the wrong person.  Andy does a good job, but everything he does is built on the work of others.
FWIW and thanks for the link, but let me clarify: I learned it from Andy. I can't speak for anyone else. I didn't say, or at least didn't mean to say, that Andy originated the idea.

I'll read the other topic/discussion now.
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Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Sean_A

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Re: Origins/Styles of some Templates
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 02:26:56 AM »
These days I think cape is taken to mean a diagonal carry period. Some folks may get upset by this, but maybe hard core types could specifically agree to a Cape Hole being a diagonal carry to a green.

I want to say North Devon's 4th was at one point more of a diagonal carry over Cape Bunker, but I can't find a reference for this.

Ciao
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Origins/Styles of some Templates
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2019, 02:52:25 AM »
Reference the Cape 4th at Westward Ho!/RND.


Consider for the moment 'cape' in geographical/nautical terms .... it's essentially a point or headland or promontory that juts out into an ocean or body of water.


If you examine in detail the shape of the famous WH!/RND Cape Bunker there is a central section that juts out forming a point or a headland or a promontory, ie forming a cape.






In olden days this point, headland, promontory, ie the cape was also there -





Furthermore, in olden days when flooding occurred, which it did, the area of the now sand bunker would have accumulated water within it thus the point, headland, promontory, the cape would have jutted out into the flood water.


Great feature, great course.


atb


PS - in reality the Cape isn't one bunker these days, it's two bunkers.





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Nigel Islam

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Re: Origins/Styles of some Templates
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2019, 09:17:30 AM »
The Leven hole is essentially based on a diagonal hazard that is in the carry range for most players. A mound/bunker guards the side of the green on the line of the short carry complicating those that don't challenge the hazard.


The Maiden refers to the green itself. Typically a dealer that runs parallel to the line of play creating to raised tiers. In reality it's sort of like a Biarritz green that's been rotated 90 degrees


The Valley hole is really just a topographic description right?


Camargo's 12th was a channel hole originally.
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