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Paul Elam

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The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« on: May 28, 2019, 04:20:00 PM »
Does anyone know anything about The Flag golf network?  It appears to be a variation of the Dormie Network destination model with Jack Nicklaus on board as course designer/investor?  Looks like it would be more "resort-ish" with spas, pools, tennis, etc. while Dormie is more centered on the golf.


Website says four locations to start--Central Florida with three courses newly developed, and then a mix of new/refurbished courses in South Florida, Arizona, and North Carolina.  Future "plans" to expand to Caribbean, Ireland, Scotland, etc.


$6,500/yr with no initiation and opening in 2020?  Seems awfully ambitious?  With that schedule, they would seemingly have to have the courses under way or a deal to purchase?  Wonder if those "in the know" on this board have any thoughts...





Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2019, 04:45:00 PM »
What do you get for that $6500?  Does it include a certain number of nights and accommodation?

Paul Elam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2019, 05:32:43 PM »
What do you get for that $6500?  Does it include a certain number of nights and accommodation?


I assume $6,500/year just gets you access?  Lodging , guest fees, etc. would be extra. It looks really new, so I assume there will be some movement in features/benefits/price...

Nick Ribeiro

Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2019, 05:49:20 PM »
Investors who want to get into golf see these networks as a way towards profitability. There are volume advantages in owning multiple clubs. Being able to share equipment, streamline management, and get volume discounts on essentially everything you buy is a big advantage. I think this group is looking at the success of Discovery Land Co, The Trump Org, and now Dormie Network and they see opportunity. I hope they do well, golf needs more companies like these.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2019, 06:01:44 PM »
The pictures of the "Arizona" course are pretty clearly Quintero, which interestingly is not a Nicklaus design. It's a Rees Jones upscale daily fee. Was originally private but went public about a decade ago.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2019, 06:19:29 PM »

Can someone provide a website link.  Tried to find it without success through google.


Paul Elam

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Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2019, 06:24:36 PM »

Edward Glidewell

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Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2019, 06:40:15 PM »
Anyone have any idea what courses (or former courses?) they are redeveloping in North Carolina? It seems like you'd want to have them in the mountains, at the coast, or in Pinehurst, but I don't know of anything that applies in those locations.

B.Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2019, 07:50:11 PM »
at least according to a thread over on golfwrx.com, it's not going to be new courses but existing ones that nicklaus is affiliated with. seems much more like a dormie network copy cat than something like DLC. unless i'm mistaken, does a membership at one dlc club get you cart fee reciprocals at all of their others?

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2019, 10:13:33 AM »
What do you get for that $6500?  Does it include a certain number of nights and accommodation?


I assume $6,500/year just gets you access?  Lodging , guest fees, etc. would be extra. It looks really new, so I assume there will be some movement in features/benefits/price...
I don't get it.  What's the value proposition if you can go play golf resorts like Bandon, Cabot, Pebble, SV, Kiawah, Pinehurst, Streamsong, Casa de Campo, etc which are better courses anyway?  And what's the attraction of central Florida other than cheap land?


I would rather have someone like Mike Keiser put together some sort of a club for his resorts.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2019, 08:08:48 PM »





It would have to depend on the pricing relative to the high-end public options but I would have to think some factors such as pace of play would favor Flag. 

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2019, 03:10:21 PM »
I don't get it.  What's the value proposition if you can go play golf resorts like Bandon, Cabot, Pebble, SV, Kiawah, Pinehurst, Streamsong, Casa de Campo, etc which are better courses anyway?  And what's the attraction of central Florida other than cheap land?


I would rather have someone like Mike Keiser put together some sort of a club for his resorts.
As has transpired in the Ski industry with the proliferation of annual passes to a consortium of different ski resort networks, i.e. Epic Pass (Vail Resorts), Mountain Collective and the Ikon Ski Pass, you're seeing the same occur with destination golf resorts and private golf clubs courtesy of companies such as Club Corp Travel, Dormie and now Flag. Were you to put the right mix of private/public clubs and resorts together under one membership, it could be a big win/win for the consumer and the clubs/resorts affiliated with said pass or membership. For example, if someone put a annual pass or membership together comprising of the courses referenced in your post, in which golf fees (greens fees, cart/caddie) were covered and included unlimited golf, use of the driving range, a day locker, etc. how awesome would that be? You could literally play multiple rounds at different destination courses each month if you timed it correctly.


For private clubs that are struggling to make ends meet or healthy privates simply looking to add to their coffers, this could potentially be a boon for their bottom line were they to hook-up with the right membership network. Granted, there are certain private clubs in the Top 100 - 200 in the U.S. that would ever allow this type of clientele on their premises. However, rest-assured there are many that would were the payoff substantial enough. Envision an annual membership that included access to a number of private clubs in the Top 100 and now it gets interesting, as the possibilities are endless. For example, you could plan a week vacation in Chicago and play Medinah, Olympia Fields, Ravisole, Butler National and Chicago Golf Club all in one fell swoop!


One thing I do know is that this concept isn't going away. To the contrary, it's only going to continue to grow in stature and perhaps become the defacto way of golf memberships going forward. I, for one, welcome the change and feel it will help grow the game by giving people access to courses they would never otherwise have the ability to play. I'm simply waiting for one of these companies to come up with a membership offering that includes access to enough good courses in and around my area and state, in addition to some Top 100 - 200 privates, publics and destination resorts throughout the U.S. and abroad. It's not a matter of if this will happen, but when?
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Jay Revell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2019, 03:32:25 PM »
This looks like someone selling beachfront property in Arizona. A high priced bottle of fresh Wyoming air. Seeing Jack in a scam like this it makes me cringe. The concept is not new but this variation looks particularly offensive. The amorphous language and bucolic comparisons to the world's "great courses" just sounds absurd. This looks like a marketing team got locked in a room with not enough oxygen for a few days...The Flag, what the hell does that even mean?


Love the stock imagery too! What a visual delight!


The concept of national membership alliances isn't bad, but I predict this iteration will die quickly once the looming recession kicks in over the next few more quarters. I have a feeling that the coming recession will further accelerate many changes that are underway in golf today. Seeing poorly planned developments like this fall through will be a good thing.

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2019, 03:43:13 PM »
This looks like someone selling beachfront property in Arizona. A high priced bottle of fresh Wyoming air. Seeing Jack in a scam like this it makes me cringe. The concept is not new but this variation looks particularly offensive. The amorphous language and bucolic comparisons to the world's "great courses" just sounds absurd. This looks like a marketing team got locked in a room with not enough oxygen for a few days...The Flag, what the hell does that even mean?

Love the stock imagery too! What a visual delight!
LMAO!!  ;D ;D ;D  Great rebut, Jay!
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Matt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2019, 03:47:04 PM »
The next recession will be an opportunity for the well capitalized Network.

The LPGA announced this morning a new marketing partnership with The Dormie Network. 

https://www.lpga.com/news/2019-dormie-network-joins-lpga-family-as-official-marketing-partner

Jay Revell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2019, 04:42:34 PM »
If the golf is good and a strategic partnership can strengthen its financial operations then certain variations of this model can work. The idea of building new resort style clubs and courses to launch one of these seems like a good way to flush away cash though. I like the idea of having regional alliances of courses that may share some common traits and I could see value in that. I just don't know many people looking for what The Flag is selling.


I greatly enjoyed reading the piece on the Outpost Club in Golfers Journal #8. I think that what that team has done and is now replicating with Silver Club Society is a great model for getting like minded golfers together for meaningful outings and events. I think we are already seeing more of those start to pop up based around different golfing desires. It would seem that a group like Dormie would host and promote member events at their courses in the same style as the Outpost does. I know they are now a sponsor for Zac Blair and he is hosting his next Ringer event at Dormie Club. They'd be wise to get him doing more of that as he produces a fine outing!


If we see more society like organizations that create great experiences people will respond to them. That can carry over to golf course networks as well. However, if the golf is crap and the experience is lacking then whatever gets cooked up will fail.

B.Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2019, 05:56:28 PM »

as great as this sounds, you have to tread lightly or else you devalue the existing membership that full time members have. the minute full time members who don't utilize their dues find out that someone's coming to their club once or twice a year for 1/10th the price as part of a national network, you have a revolt on your hands. the trick would be to get existing members of willing host clubs into the network at a deep discount or what not. club corp travel is an okay model but the issue there is club corp tracks are run like they are for profit (which they are), and thus are often overcrowded or in poor condition, at least in certain regions.


but you do raise a very good point: for the top 250 US, instead of the old pro 2 pro system for access plus a greens fee, why don't clubs of similar mindsets form true alliances / networks so that the cost for traveling members is merely cart and/or caddie fee? i'm sure the common refrain is people who join these clubs can afford to pay a guest fee at a private club when they travel, but i think that's presumptuous. you can set it up so each member gets no more than 8 away rounds in a year and 2 max in 1 city so its not abused. clubs would need to be geographically strategic with their alliances. for example, a northeast/southeast florida alliance wouldn't work as it would hurt the membership rolls in south east florida where a large % of those members are seasonal and use florida as a 2nd club.


it's a big idea w/ lots of moving parts and no easy solve in an industry that lags so far behind in modernizing, but its something to be tackled as more people born after 1980 join clubs. its a generation that likes value, efficiency and options.



I don't get it.  What's the value proposition if you can go play golf resorts like Bandon, Cabot, Pebble, SV, Kiawah, Pinehurst, Streamsong, Casa de Campo, etc which are better courses anyway?  And what's the attraction of central Florida other than cheap land?


I would rather have someone like Mike Keiser put together some sort of a club for his resorts.
As has transpired in the Ski industry with the proliferation of annual passes to a consortium of different ski resort networks, i.e. Epic Pass (Vail Resorts), Mountain Collective and the Ikon Ski Pass, you're seeing the same occur with destination golf resorts and private golf clubs courtesy of companies such as Club Corp Travel, Dormie and now Flag. Were you to put the right mix of private/public clubs and resorts together under one membership, it could be a big win/win for the consumer and the clubs/resorts affiliated with said pass or membership. For example, if someone put a annual pass or membership together comprising of the courses referenced in your post, in which golf fees (greens fees, cart/caddie) were covered and included unlimited golf, use of the driving range, a day locker, etc. how awesome would that be? You could literally play multiple rounds at different destination courses each month if you timed it correctly.


For private clubs that are struggling to make ends meet or healthy privates simply looking to add to their coffers, this could potentially be a boon for their bottom line were they to hook-up with the right membership network. Granted, there are certain private clubs in the Top 100 - 200 in the U.S. that would ever allow this type of clientele on their premises. However, rest-assured there are many that would were the payoff substantial enough. Envision an annual membership that included access to a number of private clubs in the Top 100 and now it gets interesting, as the possibilities are endless. For example, you could plan a week vacation in Chicago and play Medinah, Olympia Fields, Ravisole, Butler National and Chicago Golf Club all in one fell swoop!


One thing I do know is that this concept isn't going away. To the contrary, it's only going to continue to grow in stature and perhaps become the defacto way of golf memberships going forward. I, for one, welcome the change and feel it will help grow the game by giving people access to courses they would never otherwise have the ability to play. I'm simply waiting for one of these companies to come up with a membership offering that includes access to enough good courses in and around my area and state, in addition to some Top 100 - 200 privates, publics and destination resorts throughout the U.S. and abroad. It's not a matter of if this will happen, but when?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2019, 06:06:17 PM »
Dormie buys your club and pours a ton of money into infrastructure and maintenance. Outpost just makes a call. There is no comparison.


After 20 years of watching raters, bloggers and drone runners play for free I'll never be jealous of a fellow dues playing true national member.

B.Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2019, 06:39:42 PM »
wasn't comparing OC to dormie. OC's value prop is also more in their events than their concierge services. in fact they've begun outsourcing much of the latter to their own members through the thousandgreens integration.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2019, 06:44:13 PM »

After 20 years of watching raters, bloggers and drone runners play for free I'll never be jealous of a fellow dues playing true national member.


It's time to pull the trigger on the International Membership:





« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 06:46:22 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2019, 07:42:44 PM »
at least according to a thread over on golfwrx.com, it's not going to be new courses but existing ones that nicklaus is affiliated with. seems much more like a dormie network copy cat than something like DLC. unless i'm mistaken, does a membership at one dlc club get you cart fee reciprocals at all of their others?


Definitely not the case. Two DLC properties here in Cabo (El Dorado and Chileno Bay) and no reciprocity other than an invitation to invest (buy property).


That said there have been whispers of an exit strategy based on promoting such an offer for up to 1000 interested people for an additional fee in the 7 figure neighborhood. Not sure how that would work with so many varied investors/financial backers of the various projects which is near 25 in number now I believe.


Either way they have perfected the model and those with the means love the product.

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2019, 01:39:27 PM »
What kind of individual joins these “course networks”?  I’m curious what the draw is, and how it best serves the customer.  For me personally, it just doesn’t make sense so this is why I’m im asking. 
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2019, 02:18:04 PM »
What kind of individual joins these “course networks”?  I’m curious what the draw is, and how it best serves the customer.  For me personally, it just doesn’t make sense so this is why I’m im asking.


John, I am a member at Ballyhack. I live two hours away. I generally get down twice a month for two days of 36 holes at day. This spring I spent five days at Briggs Ranch in Texas. I am going to Hidden Creek next month and I get to Dormie Club a couple times a year. I will be heading to Victoria National in August or September. They cap local members at 100, so the courses are never crowded. The conditioning at the clubs is superb and the food is nothing short of excellent. We are full members at every course we play. Dormie only buys courses you want to travel to see. I was a Member at Musgrove Mill for 20 years, the last 7 or 8 as part of the McConnell group. We had playing privileges at each of the McConnell courses and they were very good, but not the same quality as Dormie.


If you want to travel and feel at home at a bunch of different courses, stay on property, and enjoy each club one of then something like Dormie is for you.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2019, 06:17:01 PM »
Please
No more ads for ANY network.
Partnership with LPGA notwithstanding... :-[

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Flag--Dormie Network copycat?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2019, 06:20:38 PM »
Please
No more ads for ANY network.
Partnership with LPGA notwithstanding... :-[


Just answering a question, Jeff. You don't get to determine which ones I answer.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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