[Lou_Duran]

Cypress Point is my favorite course.  I could fill a couple pages noting its shortcomings.  Shouldn't we be looking at the totality, first of the golf course, then everything else in the "experience"?


As a result of this thread, I've been asking golfers who've played RD whether the course's reputation is deserved.  I don't have a close tally, but the "over-rated" has a decided edge.

[Niall C]

David


I don't really get the 2nd and 6th are alike chat. Both are relatively penal if you miss them on either side (as most par 3's tend to be) but you are left with different challenges in each case provided you find your ball. The 10th and 13th aren't that short for us moderate hitters and the 10th can be damn hard to hold unless you are a big hitter who can go in with a short club or alternatively adept at jumping the fronting bunker. That's my (limited) experience anyway. Probably the worst hole on the course for me. The 13th I actually think is pretty good if fairly conventional compared to the other par 3's.


As for the 8th and 17th playing the same, I think you are completely overlooking the completely different green complexes.


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

David


I don't really get the 2nd and 6th are alike chat. Both are relatively penal if you miss them on either side (as most par 3's tend to be) but you are left with different challenges in each case provided you find your ball. The 10th and 13th aren't that short for us moderate hitters and the 10th can be damn hard to hold unless you are a big hitter who can go in with a short club or alternatively adept at jumping the fronting bunker. That's my (limited) experience anyway. Probably the worst hole on the course for me. The 13th I actually think is pretty good if fairly conventional compared to the other par 3's.


As for the 8th and 17th playing the same, I think you are completely overlooking the completely different green complexes.


Niall

I understand David's point entirely as it is something that I have pointed out in the past. The second is a great hole and the sixth is pretty good too though I think it would be improved if one of the left hand bunkers were removed and the slope on the left allowed the ball to descend to greenside. Both however require the same club and both are very much a don't miss the green unless it is short type of hole.


The thirteenth is also an excellent hole though I believe would be improved by removing all the bunkers short of the green thus increasing the shot options. It and the tenth both require the same club. My dislike of the tenth is well documented on this site. It is simply a terrible hole devoid of strategy and charm. I would struggle to find anything positive about if not for the decent challenge of the putting surface. Perhaps filling in half the front bunker or entirely removing it and leaving a dip would help but it has surprised me this weak hole has not been addressed in the recent changes.


Individually three of the par threes are good to excellent but as a group they are poor through lacking in variety. I know many on here will disagree with my assessment but I suppose the difference of opinion is what makes the discussion interesting.


I can also understand David's comments about eight and seventeen at least in relation to the tee shot. For the average hitter it really is just a case of launching it to the bottom level. I hope that with the 8th the redesign will restore the dilemma of taking on the ridge or not.


As for the 7th, I would disagree with his assessment as I find it to be one of the few holes that improve the rhythm of the round. It allows the golfers to open up the shoulders and try and chase a ball down the fairway off the tee which is a welcome change after the constraints of 2 through to 6. I think the club would have been better to have improved through widening the existing hole off the tee. I do not think the new hole will be worse as an individual hole than the present one but I do worry that the course as a hole will be worse off.

[Niall C]

I understand David's point entirely as it is something that I have pointed out in the past. The second is a great hole and the sixth is pretty good too though I think it would be improved if one of the left hand bunkers were removed and the slope on the left allowed the ball to descend to greenside. Both however require the same club and both are very much a don't miss the green unless it is short type of hole.

Jon


As you know I'm very adept at missing greens so I usually take quite a bit of notice in where you have to recover from and what kind of shot you have. While both greens are of the elevated kind the 2nd has a fairly easy run up from the front while the 6th, IIRC, anything short is liable to run off to the right as well as back down the slope, leaving a chip to a higher level. Needless to ay the left hand sides of the two greens are completely different and perhaps are similar in respect of the degree of difficulty but not really with the type of shot you have.


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Indeed you are though all that practice has made you the master of recovery as I have experienced first hand on more than a few occasions 


I agree with your conclusions about the 2nd and 6th they do not require identical recoveries. I was looking more at the basic challenge they set and the easy option which in both cases are don't miss the green unless it is short. The 10th and the 13th are pretty much the same with a don't miss the target though the 13th is more adaptable to conditions where as if the 10th is played with a stiff downwind breeze to a firm green you need to get lucky to hold the green. In fact even hitting the upslope of the step does not guarantee not going through the back. As for the drop it short of the bunker and hop over it, the hop over is just a likely to catch the downslope of bunker resulting in the ball going through the back. I have played a few of times with a member who managed to run the ball round the right side of the bunker onto the green once but this is an incredibly difficult shot.


Jon


 

[William_G]

Cypress Point is my favorite course.  I could fill a couple pages noting its shortcomings. 

this is a great way of thinking about almost anything


links golf in particular is different everyday because of the weather and that is what appeals to me about any of the courses at Bandon as compared to my home club


Dornoch requires good golf shots at each hole, enough said

[Victor Donnay]

Having been reading about Dornoch and the other excellent links course in the area on this site for the past couple years, I have just made travel plans to vist the area the week of Aug 5-11th. Playing as a single, I would welcome any GCAers who would like to join me for a round (Brora, Golspie, tbd). I have tee times at Dornoch on Aug 8 and 9th (remembering the advice to play it twice) and there is still a free single spot at those times (at least as of now). PM me . 

[David_Tepper]

Just received these comments in an email from a well-traveled golfer visiting Dornoch for the first time:

"we played Dornoch in bright sunshine and light breezes on Saturday.  I don’t know that I’ve ever played a greater golf course, and if there were one the odds are I’d’ve played it."
"Loved the course, loved the experience, loved how there’s usually a safe way to get to the green for those of us who don’t overpower the golf course.  Great greens."

[Niall C]

Dornoch requires good golf shots at each hole, enough said

"enough said" - is there any other phrase that is as irritating or patronising as that, particularly on a Discussion Board !

Anyway William, how about talking us through courses that require bad shots at each hole.

Niall

[John Crowley]

Virtually every shot on every hole requires that you take the proper line for the weather conditions on the day (mainly wind). In many cases a five yard miss can cost you a stroke.

[Niall C]

John


In a general sense what you describe is the same for an awful lot of (links) courses although I do think you overstate by saying virtually every shot on every hole. There are quite a few holes where the line off the tee isn't going to make much difference as long as you don't end up in the bundi. And then there is the punch bowl-ish 8th green where even an off line hit can end up in more or less the same place.


Niall   

[Jon Wiggett]

Virtually every shot on every hole requires that you take the proper line for the weather conditions on the day (mainly wind). In many cases a five yard miss can cost you a stroke.

Does not this describe the very opposite of classical links golf? Defined shots and lack of options. Not that I think this is a good description of Dornoch. I would agree with Niall in that the tee shot is not very important other to keep it on the short stuff.

[William_G]

Dornoch requires good golf shots at each hole, enough said

"enough said" - is there any other phrase that is as irritating or patronising as that, particularly on a Discussion Board !

Anyway William, how about talking us through courses that require bad shots at each hole.

Niall

that is kind of funny, but demeaning


I think I like courses where bad shots are required too, but Dornoch is not one of them. Good shots are rewarded more than your average round with your friends, a very sweet thing.


At the same time Dornoch is casual, efficient, beautiful, egalitarian, ocean side, nice town, great people etc...


The new holes look fantastic can't wait to get back with some friends.


Love the greens and the simple routing, very interesting place evolving over the years all under the eyes of the massive Sunderland Statue, the Mannie


All good for sure.

[Niall C]

William


It looks like you posted in a hurry so did you really mean to say "courses where bad shots are required too" ? I don't know of any such courses but on most courses, including Dornoch, you can get away with a bad shot in a lot of places. Is that what you meant ?


Niall

[William_G]

William


It looks like you posted in a hurry so did you really mean to say "courses where bad shots are required too" ? I don't know of any such courses but on most courses, including Dornoch, you can get away with a bad shot in a lot of places. Is that what you meant ?


Niall

is it Niall or something that begins with an R?


no rush (but thanks for handicapping me again) and I meant what I typed.


are you serious, no sense of humor


happiness comes from within and before you type on any blog


if you aren't having fun, do something else


hope you are well

[Niall C]

Well, I suppose your last post was as informative and made as much sense as your previous ones. If you ever want to have a serious and intelligent discussion on the merits or demerits on the architecture of the course, please let me know.


Niall

[Mark Mammel]

This is an interesting thread. I've been a member at RDGC since 1993, so have seen it when the gorse was much more challenging, as well as in the current era where the conditioning is now first class and the gorse has been cut back to accommodate both the longer ball and the desire to keep play moving. In short, I think of great courses a bit like great novels. From the first chapter, you find yourself anxious to see what comes next, with the course flowing in a logical and pleasant fashion from one challenge to the next. The walk is outstanding and the scenery matches the golf. Finishing on 16, 17 and 18 brings a wonderful conclusion, with the giant 18th green providing a finishing challenge for those good enough to get there in 2. I think holes 2 and 6 are both excellent holes. In my experience they do not require the same club, generally due to the wind and position of the holes. Both allow a short first shot and a relatively easy chip up as long as the slope isn't challenged too much. Miss the green and disaster often follows. Regarding 10, the club agreed with many that especially downwind, it can be nearly impossible to hold the green. So the front bunker was moved last year back towards the tee by the width of the bunker. This helps with 2 problems: when  the bunker was adjacent to the green, the lower tier was almost unusable for pin positions due to the accumulation of sand. Second, it is now possible to land just over the bunker and hold the green. Re Donald Ross, the bunker in front of the 15th hole is known as the Ross bunker as he is said to have put it in. Finally, unlike many other difficult courses, I always have a sense of joy playing Dornoch no matter the score. From the town to the beach, it exudes magic and is fully worthy of the Doak perfect 10 designation.So what's so great about Dornoch? Everything.

[John Crowley]

William


It looks like you posted in a hurry so did you really mean to say "courses where bad shots are required too" ? I don't know of any such courses but on most courses, including Dornoch, you can get away with a bad shot in a lot of places. Is that what you meant ?


Niall

is it Niall or something that begins with an R?


no rush (but thanks for handicapping me again) and I meant what I typed.


are you serious, no sense of humor


happiness comes from within and before you type on any blog


if you aren't having fun, do something else


hope you are well

Well said GG

[John Crowley]

Virtually every shot on every hole requires that you take the proper line for the weather conditions on the day (mainly wind). In many cases a five yard miss can cost you a stroke.

Does not this describe the very opposite of classical links golf? Defined shots and lack of options. Not that I think this is a good description of Dornoch. I would agree with Niall in that the tee shot is not very important other to keep it on the short stuff.

Ok, I was overly broad in saying “virtually every shot”. Mea culpa.
True many tee shots need not be pin point.
Approach shots however, for players who do not come in with high spinning shots and are often using ground contours, require careful lines that avoid bunkers and other difficult recovery areas. And to use contours to get close to the hole.

[Niall C]

John


I think, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that the essence of links golf or golf on any hard running course is the need to judge and control the way the ball will react on landing on the ground which is obviously much harder to do than on a soft inland course. That's what you are basically saying I think. However RDGC, while a very good golf course, IMO isn't really the best example of this. There are too many plateau greens that almost mandate a lofted shot. Not only that they tend to be partially blind.


As Ally McIntosh is fond of saying its the flatter links that are generally more interesting when you really can play the ground game.


Niall


ps. sorry, no idea what William G is meaning. It all read as inane babble to me which is a shame when there's a worthwhile topic to discuss


 

[Sean_A]

John

I think, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that the essence of links golf or golf on any hard running course is the need to judge and control the way the ball will react on landing on the ground which is obviously much harder to do than on a soft inland course. That's what you are basically saying I think. However RDGC, while a very good golf course, IMO isn't really the best example of this. There are too many plateau greens that almost mandate a lofted shot. Not only that they tend to be partially blind.

Niall

Niall

How much do you think the quality of the course is effected by aerial approach greens?  Would it make any difference if Dornoch wasn't a links?

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean


 I couldn't put a number on it but for me, and it's purely subjective, it's a definite minus for the course. Not that having a carry/aerial shot is hugely bad in itself but for me at Dornoch it is overdone and in some instances not done very well. Variety counts for a lot and I feel a lot of the time you are having to pitch up at RDGC.


Niall

[David_Tepper]

Niall -

The only holes at Dornoch where one cannot hit a run-up shot on to the green are the short par-4 fifth and the par-3 tenth and thirteenth.

DT

[Lou_Duran]

One of the things which makes it difficult to discuss gca is that we all come to the subject differently and our perspectives, expectations, even our definitions of features and shot options are all over the place.  (I've heard so many holes called redan, alps, cape, "Mae West" which have the slightest resemblance to the originals or the shots that they require, making communication nearly impossible).


I played five rounds on the Championship course a few weeks back and apparently I was not at the same R. Dornoch that Niall knows so well.  Though the area received considerable rain this year and the course was greener than what I recall from last year, the ground game was not only an option for me on many holes, but a requirement- finally got home on two at Foxy, running a 3-wood second some 40 yards after flying it maybe 180, only to 3-Putt from 60'+.  Perhaps I should have used the aerial approach on #18 as my punch 5-iron from 190+ scampered over the green into a difficult lie.


But I digress.  I think one of the main features which makes R. Dornoch special above many other links is the visual interaction with the sea and the other holes on the course.  Another is that the course is highly playable from the proper tees and often offers the opportunity for a great recovery shot following an indifferent one.  A third is how different it can play from day to day.  Another is the nice rolling topography with considerable elevation changes while still relatively easy to walk.


A longtime resident member struck up a conversation in the locker room with me and finally asked whether the course was really the 4th best outside the U.S.  I didn't have an answer for him then and still don't today.  As I replied, that it is in the conversation says a lot of the course.  IMO, everyone who has a strong interest in gca and the means should play RD a couple of times.  I say this with no desire to provoke, but I'd play RD 7 or 8 times out of 10 with TOC as the other option.       

[Michael Whitaker]

I'd play RD 7 or 8 times out of 10 with TOC as the other option.     

Me too!!! 

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