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Mike Feeney

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2019, 09:55:59 AM »
TD's point plays out frequently on the dreaded sharp/90 degree dogleg, par 4.   Tee shot can be a real snoozer.
People that disagree w/me point to ANGC's 13th (par=4.5).   




Kalen Braley

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2019, 10:47:03 AM »
I don't think Tom is saying holes where you can't see the green from are bad or poor holes, just that its preferential to see where one is headed, especially if a bunch of obstacles lay in the path and you're trying to calculate a path/strategy that works best for you.


P.S.  Sadly we high cappers are almost constantly getting the "recalculating" chime after nearly every shot!  ;D

Joe Hancock

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2019, 11:32:05 AM »
If the list of “rules” to what constitutes a good (or not) golf hole is too long, it would render a fairly contrived and limited variety of what we golfers get to enjoy. Let the land dictate the course, route to your preferences, and don’t try so hard to make everyone happy.


(P.S., the above advice is for my own edification should I ever find myself in the fortunate position of being the golf course architect hired for an actual, viable project)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2019, 11:49:22 AM »

To be honest, over the years, I have found the group think here defending blind shots and to a similar degree, centerline bunkers, really over the top.  Regarding blind shots, nearly every architect in history and most good players dislike them (hate probably being too strong a word)  Of course, Pre WW 2 guys had less tools at their disposal to correct routing deficiencies, and perhaps strove even harder to avoid them in their routings.


For the most part, a course of no blind shots is always the goal.  Of course, most of us would put up with them once or twice a round, if obviously required by rock that can't be blasted, or some special topographic feature (like 8 at PB, just too good too pass up even with a blind tee shot)  RTJ was criticized in part for too many sharp doglegs, with tee shot LZ bunkered both sides and the green not visible (see Hazeltine, 1970 US Open)


Strategic players are like generals, they don't like to go to battle without a clear idea of where the enemy lies.  If you believe in strategic design, your probably should believe in making holes as visible as possible.  I recall a debate in Golf Digest, or somewhere about the 1970's about whether not seeing the bottom of the pin from the LZ would be considered blind, and Jack Nicklaus and other pros loudly argued for that.  While not always possible, I try to flare the backs of greens up high enough so they are visible to give some distance perspective. Pros want to know how far a tucked pin is from the outside edge of the green, but I have always found that hard to achieve for various reasons.


Similarly, every good player I know prefers to see the entire hole from the tee if possible.  Like blind shots, they realize that many doglegs prevent that and a few are okay.  Again, if strategy is planning one shot ahead, seeing one shot ahead makes some sense, even if you aren't hitting the green with your tee shot.


I have probably only designed a few blind tee shots in my 50+ course career - 12 at Links of Sierra Blanca in NM, with the old runway presenting a look similar to 18 Rivera, 4 at Firekeeper (mimicking 4 at Royal St. George in Scotland) and to a lesser degree, 6th at Giant's Ridge Quarry, where the natural mine spoils were too good to flatten so the fw is blind.  There may be a few more.  For par 3's, 17 at Cowboys is the only real uphill par 3, and I bracketed the green with bunkers (as I usually do on uphill approaches) to make up for the blind putting surface with pretty clear definition of its edges.  There may be a few more, as well, but I don't recall them.



As to Joe's last comment, I believe a look at golf architecture proves otherwise.  And, as I have commented before, literally a million songs use the same 4 chords and yet they are all different enough to be distinctive.  Only on this discussion board, would having "best practices" or strong principles would be regarded a bad thing.  Too many here overly laud the obvious exceptions that prove the rule.    Those exceptions do exist, and most of us know them when we see them.  But I agree its not really totally black and white, what I'm saying is a few make them the pleasant exception, too many and then its just a case of a lot of bad holes.


However, IMHO, that is not the way to attack a design problem, starting with the idea that every hole should break some good conventions, at least in the basics.  Once the basic hole is created, if you want to make the hazard a rattlesnake pit over a traditional sand bunker, go right ahead.  I for one, would prefer to see the snakes well in advance, though.





Just my $0.02
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2019, 12:24:12 PM »
Just thinking about this some more, another of my favourite courses, St Enodoc, has seven holes you can't see the green from the tee. I would say 1, 3, 6 and 10 are among the best holes on the course. 

Moving onto North Berwick, a course one might expect to have loads of holes where the green can't be seen from the tee, but no, only four holes, two of them iconic, 14 & 15. 

I guess my point is trying to apply hard and fast rules on design will definitely lead to less design variety.  I am happy to take the bad for the chance of there being some good results as well.  My stance on design is its all good in the right circumstances and with the right balance.  Of course, the right circumstances and balance is different for everybody.  The important thing is to not automatically dismiss something because of a personal or general "rule" of design...because in truth there are no rules, only conventions and mores.  Besides, often times it can be very easy to forgive weaknesses of a course if it excels in another area or two.   

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Peter Pallotta

Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2019, 12:34:33 PM »
Jeff - off your musical analogy: jazz has been described as the 'sound of surprise'. I think that's true; but in order for there to be a surprise there needs be a set of expectations established first. And the best soloists consistently managed to accomplish both, ie they played so cleanly and logically and made so much musically-satisfying sense that they provided the listener with a set of expectations (conscious or not), and then -- and only then -- offered up a startling and delightful surprise; and throughout the course of their solo they did this over and over again, ie combined the expected and the unexpected, the one flowing into the other so seamlessly so that, by the end, it felt like the whole of the improvised-on-the-spot solo (its entire structure & 'architecture' and every single element/note) had existed for all of time, out there in the ether, and could not have been any different or any better than what it was, right down to the smallest detail.
Talent.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 12:37:01 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2019, 12:57:06 PM »
I think a lot of people are missing the point of this thread:


- It is not about blind shots
- There are clearly many, many great holes where you can’t see the green from the tee. Some of those are better for it.
- It is an undeniable truth that for those of us who find pleasure in good topography, the more of it you see, the better
- Green sites are amongst the most attractive things you see on golf courses and seeing them from the tee adds an element of beauty.
- It is more likely that a hole appears boring or non-descript if you can only see 280 yards down the fairway rather than the whole way. Too many of those on a golf course is a negative thing. A few is generally OK.
- Some of my favourite holes have a blind tee shot or a blind approach shot BUT STILL have a view of the green from the tee
- My ratio of blind holes built to total holes built is probably higher than any architect alive... yet I’ll still shave a dune, slightly move a tee or clear scrub in order to gain a glimpse of a green from a tee. Because it looks GOOD.
- Seeing more of a hole and where the pin is positioned allows an extra level of strategy whilst standing on the tee
- It also stops new architects or greens committee putting in target or framing features.

jeffwarne

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2019, 01:11:20 PM »

To be honest, over the years, I have found the group think here defending blind shots and to a similar degree, centerline bunkers, really over the top.  Regarding blind shots, nearly every architect in history and most good players dislike them (hate probably being too strong a word)


All this time I thought it was exhilarating to come over the top of a hill and see a favorable outcome, something that 9 times out of ten I can predict if I use local knowledge and intuition-then execute the shot I "saw" in my mind from memory-a skill that the victims of perceived "lucky" will whine about.


Heavy sigh...


Royal County Down, NGLA, Fisher's Island, St. Enodoc, Ballybunion, Myopia etc...... ...."good" players and architects hate these courses?





« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 01:13:59 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2019, 01:27:08 PM »
I think a lot of people are missing the point of this thread:

- It is an undeniable truth that for those of us who find pleasure in good topography, the more of it you see, the better
- Green sites are amongst the most attractive things you see on golf courses and seeing them from the tee adds an element of beauty.
- It is more likely that a hole appears boring or non-descript if you can only see 280 yards down the fairway rather than the whole way. Too many of those on a golf course is a negative thing. A few is generally OK.


These are the three that resonate most with me.  To the last point, I'd add that if you are trying to introduce as much variety as possible into your course, it's harder to do when you can only see the tee shot.


Also, as a golf course photographer with lots of years of experience, I noticed long ago that you will almost never find a good photo of a golf course where the flag is not in the picture.  What does that tell you?


I am not saying ALL GOLF HOLES have to be this way.  It's inevitable that if you have topography and trees to work with, you're going to have some holes where it doesn't work out to see the green from the tee, and sometimes this produces excellent holes.  But my feeling is that you're better off minimizing the number of such holes, instead of repeating it without thinking.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2019, 02:30:18 PM »

Ally,


Thanks for encapsulating the thoughts in a more concise way than I had done.


I also agree with TD that generally, seeing more of the hole creates at least more visual variety, unless you happen to place "bunker right-bunker left" on nearly every green.


And, TD is saying exactly what I am saying, a few are okay, but its nothing to go out of your way to strive for.  As you suggest, its usually a value judgement - do I cut through this nice topographic feature to provide vision tee to green?  And usually the answer is yes, unless its either really spectacular topography or impossible to do. (subsurface rock, total elevation change too much, etc.)


Jeff W - I agree the suspense can be satisfying, although I believe only a few consider that to be a design criteria, and wouldn't design for the 1 in 1000 who think that is a key element of golf.  Sometimes, as a designer you have to put away your personal preferences in favor of those in your audience, as its not about me, its about them.


For most, cresting a hill and finding a favorable outcome would be quickly forgotten, but cresting a hill and finding your ball lying by some dead guy, or losing it altogether because you couldn't see where it went would tee them off to no end.  Its just human nature..... the good news is, you probably have a more positive outlook on whimsey and mystery than most golfers I have encountered, LOL.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2019, 02:35:37 PM »
Jeff,


I kind of like the opposite.  When you can see the green, but a big chunk of the fairway is hidden from view from an elevated tee or by a feature otherwise....

Tom_Doak

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2019, 04:11:16 PM »

And, TD is saying exactly what I am saying, a few are okay, but its nothing to go out of your way to strive for.  As you suggest, its usually a value judgement - do I cut through this nice topographic feature to provide vision tee to green?  And usually the answer is yes, unless its either really spectacular topography or impossible to do. (subsurface rock, total elevation change too much, etc.)



This came out funny since I am totally against cutting through topographic features just to provide visibility.

JESII

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2019, 08:42:14 PM »
This line of thinking seems awful close to the age old...




Wait for it...




“ITS ALL RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU...”

Tom_Doak

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2019, 10:21:23 PM »
Jim:


How can you reconcile that cliche against my body of work?


I’ve never been one to believe you should be easily able to decipher all the nuances of a hole on first seeing it.  But, like the best magic tricks, if you’re going to play mind games with the golfer, it goes over much better if he can see most of what’s going on, instead of it being half hidden in a black bag.


The more hidden the hole is, the fewer things I can do to make it interesting without someone screaming it’s unfair.


JESII

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2019, 10:28:23 PM »
I can’t...that’s what’s so damn confusing!

JESII

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2019, 10:33:03 PM »
I think the whole thread boils back to “boring tee shots”.


On this, your position seems too heavily influenced towards the first time visitor...for my money.


Was #6 at Sunningdale New a boring tee shot before the tree removal?  Any idea if the trees there originally?

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2019, 01:28:25 AM »
I think the whole thread boils back to “boring tee shots”.


On this, your position seems too heavily influenced towards the first time visitor...for my money.


Was #6 at Sunningdale New a boring tee shot before the tree removal?  Any idea if the trees there originally?


Yes - No.6 at Sunningdale is a better and far more beautiful hole without trees on the inside.


Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2019, 02:08:29 AM »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2019, 03:57:38 AM »
I hope I don’t disrespect many on here when I state that groupthink on this site includes the following two mantra:


- we like blind shots
- we like it when trees are cleared


And whilst this thread is not directly about either, I’m not sure everyone has stopped to consider that these two statements partially contradict each other.


Yes, you clear trees to offer turf quality and maybe extra width. But it’s the long views that trump both those reasons in most minds. The views through to greens and beyond. The views of lovely undulating topography.


I love blind shots - when they are over an interesting feature that gives you a thrill. I’d happily play that kind of shot 2 or 3 or 4 times a round. Sometimes the more blind the better (5th at The Island, 9th at RCD).


I don’t like being blind when it’s not affecting the thrill of the shot. In those cases, I choose beauty.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2019, 04:59:06 AM »
Just to be picky, but the height of the player has an effect as does their position in relation to the obstacle.
For example, a 5 ft lady playing from a most likely low level front tee with say a mound in front of her going to have a very different visual perspective to a 6ft man playing on the same line from a raised teeing area some distance further back.
Atb
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 06:28:42 AM by Thomas Dai »

Brad Payne

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2019, 05:49:25 AM »
Hey Tom, I’ve only played it once, but seems Prestwick has more than its share of holes that you can’t see the green from the tee? My memory is a bit hazy, but believe 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 15 and 17. I could be wrong. Also recall Dornoch has its fair share as well.
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Matt MacIver

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2019, 07:13:32 AM »
I like Bethpage Black but think the 1st hole is a clunker, and it’s not that i can’t see the gree but rather just a bland 90-degree dogleg.  The elevation makes it someone interesting, along with everyone watching you. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2019, 07:18:32 AM »
Hey Tom, I’ve only played it once, but seems Prestwick has more than its share of holes that you can’t see the green from the tee? My memory is a bit hazy, but believe 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 15 and 17. I could be wrong. Also recall Dornoch has its fair share as well.


Brad:


I don't need to see the surface of the green for what I'm talking about.  Seeing the flag is fine.  I just want to have some idea where I'm going.  So, the first at Prestwick gets a pass.  Same for the 17th, to the extent that you know you're going to hit over the post for [hopefully] your second shot.  And at the 15th you might actually see the flag from the tee . . . you just can't see all the crazy stuff in the landing area.


Those are entirely different than a hole where you only see a bit of the fairway in between trees, and aren't sure where the hole is going.


The closest thing to that at Prestwick is the tee shot on #3.  A first-time visitor has no idea where the hole is going after that patch of fairway, but if you tell him the second shot is going to go over the Cardinal, that's plenty of information to play the hole.  If it was trees, you couldn't really do that, all you'd be saying is that the hole doglegged a bit to the right, but there would be no sense of depth perception or trying to figure out what's going on.  [Actually, the tee shot on the 15th at Belvedere is similar to that, with trees, and it's confusing as hell.]

Tom_Doak

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2019, 07:19:19 AM »
I like Bethpage Black but think the 1st hole is a clunker, and it’s not that i can’t see the gree but rather just a bland 90-degree dogleg.  The elevation makes it someone interesting, along with everyone watching you.


Imagine it with a bunch of trees, so you couldn't see the green.  Better?  Not.

Kyle Harris

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Re: Not Seeing Where You're Going
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2019, 08:45:36 AM »
I like Bethpage Black but think the 1st hole is a clunker, and it’s not that i can’t see the gree but rather just a bland 90-degree dogleg.  The elevation makes it someone interesting, along with everyone watching you.


Imagine it with a bunch of trees, so you couldn't see the green.  Better?  Not.


Interesting example.


You can see the green from the tee. You also have another fairway down the right (1st hole of the Green Course).

However, the closer you are to the inside corner of the dogleg, the worse the approach shot becomes due to what little trees are there. I think it's hard for most golfers in that situation to actively aim outside the dogleg and seeing the green contributes to that uneasiness.
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