[Kyle Harris]

Jim -
We probably are.
While in all my posts here you'll find very few professing a love for quirk, and even fewer expressing any fondness for blind shots (or even, as in this case, not seeing at least a bit of the green from the tee, except very occasionally), I did appreciate you trying to delve into and unpack Tom's original statement/premise. And for me, the most compelling case for that premise was Tom's & Kyle's notion that the more of the whole hole a golfer can see the more the architect has to work with in terms of beguiling them (with visual stimuli and deceptions and choices etc.) But to me that's a very different 'picture' than one, as in Kyle's example at Streamsong Blue, where the 'clues' lead the golfer in a certain (likely wrong) direction -- but only once, on first playing.
P

The 12th at Streamsong Blue is an interesting case here because when it was in the crucible of a National Championship a few years back for the USGA Women's Four-Ball I saw very few players hit the tee shot anywhere other than the widest part of the fairway - which coincides with the direct line from the tee to the hole - and subsequently struggle to get the approach shot not only close, but to an easy spot to lag putt. The hole played over par on average for the second round of stroke play when the hole location was on the tier.

Keep in mind the published statistics are for the four-ball format, so only one ball counted for the score.

Had players gone down the obscured left-side they would have found a more receptive angle to those back hole locations.

[Matt Albanese]

What about a hole like #4 at Bandon Dunes? From the championship tee (443), you can see neither the fairway nor the green. I was confused about the correct line on the first play, despite the dreaded aiming bunker (which is also barely visible). This was especially problematic for me because a driver anywhere left of that bunker is in the thick rough and possibly not find-able. The correct play for me is a driver right of the bunker or a layup to the wider part of the fairway short of the bunker. But, if you don't hit it far enough, you still might not have a view of the green. Furthermore, it is very narrow right of that bunker. None of this is evident from the tee. However, the dramatic reveal of the green site set against the ocean is exhilarating once you get to the corner. That is one of the most exciting moments on the course, especially the first few plays. The excitement of that moment alone makes it hard for me to argue that it is a flawed hole. Any thoughts?

[Mark_Fine]

One of the greatest and most dramatic 2nd shots in all of golf (at least in my opinion) starts with one of the most awkward tee shots in all of golf (and no you can't see the green from the tee) - the 8th hole at Pebble Beach.  I sure hope this thread doesn't convince up and coming architects or anyone for that matter to not design/build holes like this and/or try to make everything visible from the tee all the time 

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:


The big reveal on the 4th at Bandon Dunes is a great feature and made the hole eminently worth including- even if not all of the features you cited make it a “better” hole.


It’s the same with the 8th at Pebble:  it’s the greatest second shot in golf and I’m happy they presented it, but that doesn’t make the tee shot less awkward.

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:


At first I thought you were talking about the 8th hole at Streamsong Blue, not the 12th.  It’s interesting how the two kind of play off each other strategically - the bee line on the 8th is the better angle, just narrower, while at the 12th it’s oftem better to take the longer route for the angle - but on both that means going left.

[jeffwarne]

Pic borrowed from George Freeman from Diamond Springs thread-caption below-view from fairway back to tee


"I didn't realize how cool this hole was until I got to the fairway-hence no picture from the tee"


hmmm.....

[JESII]

Well, I guess that begs the question of will he take a picture from the tee next time?


Are we building holes for the picture? Or for the golf?


Tom and Kyle are making the argument that if they can show me more of the hole, they can put more deception within it...if I can't see the hole, it's not fair to add much deception.


I fundamentally disagree with that premise as a player (no clue as a designer/superintendent). For starters, how much deception can a hole really have? beyond that, why not reward the person that figures out how to deal with it?

[jeffwarne]

Well, I guess that begs the question of will he take a picture from the tee next time?


Are we building holes for the picture? Or for the golf?


Tom and Kyle are making the argument that if they can show me more of the hole, they can put more deception within it...if I can't see the hole, it's not fair to add much deception.


I fundamentally disagree with that premise as a player (no clue as a designer/superintendent). For starters, how much deception can a hole really have? beyond that, why not reward the person that figures out how to deal with it?

Bingo
reward the person playing and appreciating it, not the photographer.
Not suggesting anyone go out of their way to hide the green from the tee, but sometimes there's a real skill in executing a shot based on less than full disclosure of information of what the demands of the NEXT shot are.


In George's case he had to walk a couple hundred yards to discover how cool the hole was(similar to the experience I posted above)-is that such a bad thing?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Spending a bunch of money to fix the issues you described. We have a par five with three blind shots, architect should have been ashamed to design such a mess.


Golf is a visually pleasing game, don't hide your good works show them.


my .02

Interesting because the hole in question at your course I loved because of the unique quality you mentioned.

Sorry to see it gone.


For what it's worth applying a similar exercise to Pine Valley as Jeff did with Augusta:

#1, 4, 6, 8, 11, 13, 16, 17 all feature greens not visible from the tee.

Balanced with:


#2(!), 7, 9, 12 (finally!), 15, 18

7 counts in the latter because the first goal is the HHA and clearing that renders a proper view of the putting surface.

Interesting to me because the holes in each category at juxtaposed between long and short two-shotters. Also interesting because The Lurker has told me on numerous occasions that Crump, et. al. cleared the left side of the 13 to attempt to give the golfer a view of the green from the tee.

Kyle how can a hole be good when it requires three spotters in tournament play? I get that it was different but not in a good way. Do you have any examples of Flynn designing holes like it?

[Kyle Harris]

Generally more harm than good comes from designing a hole for tournament play. I don't recall lost balls being a problem on the hole but it's been over 10 years since I've played it. It was unique. Unique isn't always palatable.

I think deception starts when the golfer becomes target focused and if the golfer can focus on the ultimate target he may not perceive the intervening targets. That's on the golfer - not the superintendent or the architect - to determine.

An noteworthy anecdote:


When we were grassing/finishing Streamsong Blue #18 Bill Coore walked up to me on the tee and asked me how I felt about that hole. After giving some thoughts that I no longer remember he said in a way that only Bill Coore can say: "Hmm. Where am I supposed to hit it?"

Blue #18 green is completely blind from the tee and the clubhouse provides a reference point as to where to aim. The cool juxtaposition of the hole is that you aim left of the clubhouse off the tee and when you crest the hill you realize that the green actually sits to the right of the clubhouse. However, that juxtaposition gives little in the way of deception as the golfer can make out that the right side is cluttered with bunkers and the left side is far more open. The green is a bit more receptive from the right but is not prohibitive to an approach from the left (Tom, I believe, made the decision to shrink the bunker in the approach to about a quarter of the original size, only he can comment on the reason but it definitely dominated the approach from the left in the old configuration).

What is obscured about the tee shot on Blue #18 at Streamsong is that there is a little dollop of fairway to the right around the bunker most prominently seen in the fairway and that bit of forgiveness is part of the obscured discovery that may force the golfer into a different decision on a second play.

[JESII]

In light of this thread, would this hole be better if the green were visible from the tee?

[Mark_Fine]

Kyle,
Is a feature that as you say "may force a golfer into a different decision on second play" all that important or exciting??  A "second play".  You would hope the golf course is going to be around for a long time and if the feature isn't exciting on the 50th or 100th play, who cares? 


Just an observation as the best features are the ones that intrigue, confuse, influence, and create interest and strategy more then just the first time.
Mark

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
Is a feature that as you say "may force a golfer into a different decision on second play" all that important or exciting??  A "second play".  You would hope the golf course is going to be around for a long time and if the feature isn't exciting on the 50th or 100th play, who cares? 


Just an observation as the best features are the ones that intrigue, confuse, influence, and create interest and strategy more then just the first time.
Mark

Weather and your own game's changes also add elements to this analysis. Your golfer eye from a previous play can begin to work against you, too.

[Grant Saunders]

"Does anybody remember laughter?"

Mike


The Song Remains The Same reference?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What I find frustrating is a fairly straight hole over a hill that hides the green where pin position dictates on which side of the fairway the tee shot should be placed for the best approach. A strategic hole that has lost its value. Middle of fairway to middle of green is as much as I could hope for but for some playing companions wishing to take advantage of a short par 4 it is a more than a bit annoying.

Of course, when you realize that such angles basically don't matter (unless you're talking about, oh, 60+ yards of fairway width) for better players on most courses… then these types of things matter much less to you.

I can name a number of holes on local courses I play where you can't see the green from the tee. That doesn't make for necessarily boring tee shots - you're still presented with a challenge, and if you look at the hole diagram or you've played it even one time, or someone in your group tells you where the green is… then you know all you need to know anyway.

[David Druzisky]

Blind shots are one of those charming aspects of the game and a design.  Love em.  But gotta be applied appropriately.  Can be really memorable of course.  Fearing the unknown has always been a great stimulation.

[Thomas Dai]

Let us remember that some players are physically unable to see where they’re playing to - https://www.internationalblindgolf.com/blind-golf.html - and all the best to them and their coaches/guides too.
Golf for all.
Atb

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