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Mark_Fine

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2019, 08:15:35 AM »
Professional tennis has a shot clock and it has helped the game.  Golf desperately needs one as well (one that is enforced).  It is embarrassing to watch the pace of professional golf and very bad for the game.  Time (cost is a close second) is the single biggest reason the game has dropped dramatically in popularity.  It takes too long to play.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2019, 08:29:45 AM »
If you experience slow play at a private club where you are a member it is no ones fault but your own.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2019, 09:42:06 AM »
If you experience slow play at a private club where you are a member it is no ones fault but your own.
Bull.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2019, 09:53:02 AM »
How hard is it really to get one off the first tees times of the day at any private club? I know you millinials love flap jacks with daddy time with junior. Get over it and have the wife pick up some pop tarts next time she's on Amazon. Junior will thank you.


I can honestly say that nary a single golfer has waited on me since I joined a private club for two very good reasons.


1. I play so slow that there is always a hole open in front of me.


2. I let people through on the first instant I see them.


Just to make sure that also is a rarity. Also check who has tee times both before and after your group. It's not that difficult to be happy while golfing if you are willing to make a few small sacrifices.

jeffwarne

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2019, 09:55:23 AM »
"Once he gets over the ball he's pretty quick from there"


Ian Baker Finch on JB Holmes after a 2:36 preshot routine on 17th hole.


He hit his 35 footer 15 feet past and went on to three putt.....


Until more Adam Scotts and Brooks Koepkas(both of whom add to the watchability of the tour) speak out , this won't get better.


JB Holmes adds nothing and is a major contributor to the problem.
Maybe he could watch the replay and see that his deliberation on 17 did not help.


Before someone chimes in on how great a guy JB is (I don't care) and that these guys are playing for millions (so are the guys waiting and playing with them)
I know anecdotally the people I was watching with Sunday stopped watching and I only finished watching because I was taping a show right after the conclusion.
GUys like this didn't MAKE the tour successful, but they sure are killing golf for the average fan who might've considered playing the game.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2019, 10:02:40 AM »
If we all stop watching golf will become more affordable.

Charles Lund

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2019, 10:14:21 AM »
Rule 5.6 deals with pace of play.  Reading the rule underscores the disparity between actual rules and how play occurs on the PGA Tour.

5.6  Unreasonable Delay; Prompt Pace of Play
a. Unreasonable Delay of Play
A player must not unreasonably delay play, either when playing a hole or between two holes.
 
A player may be allowed a short delay for certain reasons, such as:
 
When the player seeks help from a referee or the Committee,
 
When the player becomes injured or ill, or
 
When there is another good reason.
 
Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.6a:
 
Penalty for first breach: One penalty stroke.
 
Penalty for second breach: General Penalty.
 
Penalty for third breach: Disqualification.
 
If the player unreasonably delays play between two holes, the penalty applies to the next hole.
 
b. Prompt Pace of Play
A round of golf is meant to be played at a prompt pace.
 
Each player should recognize that his or her pace of play is likely to affect how long it will take other players to play their rounds, including both those in the player’s own group and those in following groups.
 
Players are encouraged to allow faster groups to play through.
 
(1) Pace of Play Recommendations. The player should play at a prompt pace throughout the round, including the time taken to:
Prepare for and make each stroke,
 
Move from one place to another between strokes, and
 
Move to the next teeing area after completing a hole.
 
A player should prepare in advance for the next stroke and be ready to play when it is his or her turn.
 
When it is the player’s turn to play:
 
It is recommended that the player make the stroke in no more than 40 seconds after he or she is (or should be) able to play without interference or distraction, and
 
The player should usually be able to play more quickly than that and is encouraged to do so.
 
(2) Playing Out of Turn to Help Pace of Play. Depending on the form of play, there are times when players may play out of turn to help the pace of play:
In match play, the players may agree that one of them will play out of turn to save time (see Rule 6.4a).
 
In stroke play, players may play “ready golf” in a safe and responsible way (see Rule 6.4b Exception).

Charles Lund
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 11:14:34 AM by Charles Lund »

MCirba

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2019, 10:21:00 AM »
I've long supported the Death Penalty for anyone taking more than 4 hours to play a round of golf.

Note the active verb...they are taking time and enjoyment from everyone else trying to play the golf course who is behind them.   They are taking people from the game who have limited free time and choices where to spend it.   

Bad golf and poor playing is not the culprit...

I still want to see how quickly Trevino and Jacklin played their final round at Muirfield in 1972? 

My theory is that the acceleration in time the pros take to play roughly parallels the increases in driving distance over the same period.



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2019, 10:48:26 AM »
You guys need to make a choice. You are either fans of professional golf or not.


One day they are destroying classic courses the next they are ruining your Sunday afternoons because you can't stop watching. One or the other please.

Kalen Braley

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2019, 11:14:55 AM »
I think Pat is right on the money here.  It needs to be experimented with and fixed in the lower levels if for no other reason to train the up and comers.


Then once implemented on Tour, sure there will be some initial grumbles and even a few who get weeded out because they can't adapt.  But its no different from how the long setups have made most of the short but accurate guys extinct on tour...

MCirba

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2019, 11:25:55 AM »
You guys need to make a choice. You are either fans of professional golf or not.


One day they are destroying classic courses the next they are ruining your Sunday afternoons because you can't stop watching. One or the other please.

 ;D

John, c'mon...I love to watch but it's becoming unwatchable.

I'm like the guy who reads Playboy for the pictures, though.   I look at the golf course mostly.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2019, 11:30:47 AM »
When you consider the extent to which rules officials go to see that there is absolute compliance in virtually all other areas, the inability to enforce pace of play rules is startling.


The rules of golf are written with enough specificity in most cases that it becomes a matter of establishing the facts and applying the proper rule.  With respect to the pace of play, any number of factors can cause a player and the field to slow down.  Weather and course conditions are often to blame.  Lost balls and difficult setups in the first few holes can back up play for an entire day.  Also, a much too common tendency in tournament play to call over an official for even the simplest rules issue bogs things down.


Having said this, I have noticed a reticence in qualifiers and local tournaments to apply stroke penalties even when the player is clearly liable.  Conflict avoidance is probably the reason, and often the guilty players aren't in the mix.


I see my role as a very junior official to facilitate play, so even though some OICs (official in charge) don't like that we interact with players on pace of play issues- and some players don't like to be told that they're behind- I generally find a spot after they've finished a hole to provide guidance.  I appreciate when players ask me how are they doing on time as it tells me that the starters have done a good job of stressing the pace of play policy.


The unfortunate thing is that most golfers do not believe that they are slow.  And unlike Barney who lets faster players through, it is not a common practice at many clubs, specially if the faster players are walkers.


The best way IMO to overcome slow play is from the top- the tournament committee; the head professional and applicable committee at the club level.  At a private club, the tee times might be tiered with the first hour or so reserved for fast players and the afternoon for families, Barney and his ilk.  Thoughtful course set up helps as does peer pressure.


Setting reasonable expectations for the type of play of the day is important.  IMO, OICs are much too liberal (4:45 for a threesome in qualifiers is not unusual).  But while building ample time might minimize pace of play issues, it pretty much ensures that all but the first few groups off will take that long (the task expands to the time allotted- Mgmt 101).


Mike Cirba- I think that distance off the tee has little to do with the problem.  Pre-shot routines, strategizing with a caddie or yardage book, and deliberations on and around the greens seem to me to be the bigger issues.  I worked a USGA Women's Amateur qualifier a couple years back where many of the players (many on college teams) could not pull the trigger without the direction, approval, and alignment by their caddies, even on a 2' putt.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2019, 11:32:54 AM »
Jk,

Its not an either/or...  Its OK to not want them to destroy classic courses and ask they run a tight tournament as well.

But like I've said before as have many others, I'm no golf watching addict and have cut way back on my viewing in the last 2-3 years.

Joe Leenheer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2019, 11:50:56 AM »
Does everyone have an issue with watching golf or watching the leaders finish? 


I feel that during the middle of a tournament/round, there is enough action going on to show plenty of shots for our viewing pleasure....then everything comes apart when there are 2 groups left and it takes them 45 minutes to finish two holes.


Although ya'll should know I am that guy with the PGA Tour Live subscription that tunes in just to watch featured groups...on a Thursday....I shall recuse myself from further golf viewership discussions as I clearly have a problem.
Never let the quality of your game determine the quality of your time spent playing it.

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2019, 12:17:15 PM »



This is the aspect of Rule 5.6 that seems most relevant to what we watched on Sunday:
[/size][/color]
[/size]When it is the player’s turn to play: It is recommended that the player make the stroke in no more than 40 seconds after he or she is (or should be) able to play without interference or distraction, and[/color] The player should usually be able to play more quickly than that and is encouraged to do so.[/color]
[/color]
The cumulative disregard for these parameters is what turns a 4:15 minute round into a 5:00 hour round or more.  I think it would be a good idea to time players and those with the most extreme times for making a stroke from some predetermined moment be subject to more intense scrutiny until their times decrease.  Once they are subject to scrutiny, there could be a policy such as verbal warnings on two occasions for exceeding the 40 second limit, followed by a one stroke penalty for the next infraction and a two stroke penalty for any subsequent infraction.[/font][/color]I was actually surprised to hear the announcers commenting about Holmes on Sunday.  His slow play has been notorious for a long time.  It probably is not realistic to have a 40 second limit for every shot on every hole but it seems like there are individuals who repeatedly exceed the limit by a substantial amount.  The idea of penalizing the player under conditions where they repeatedly exceed the limit when it is their turn to play would make sense to me.  [/font][/color]In football, there are limits on how long a team has to start a play and basketball has a shot clock.  [/font][/color]Charles Lund[/font][/color]

David Federman

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2019, 12:33:19 PM »
One episode at Riviera stood out to me as taking the pre-shot routine to an absurdity. JT had chipped within 6 inches of the cup on the back nine (forget which hole); proceeded to mark; toss the ball to his caddie for a thorough and lengthy cleaning; placed ball; removed mark; then tapped it in. Crazy.


I question the group punishment aspect of putting a group on the clock when it is "out of position." It seems that whenever a group is placed on the clock, invariably poor shots ensue. If only one player is slowing the entire group, why should the others pay?

Kalen Braley

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2019, 12:42:46 PM »
David,

This was posted earlier in this thread, and would certainly seem to not carry group penalties...

Quote

The Shot Clock event on the European Tour last year seemed to me to be a fairly simple idea that worked.  If I remember right (and I may have the details slightly off) the first person to play on each shot had 50 seconds, the 2nd and 3rd had 40 seconds.  Each player had the option to call for an extension once or twice a round if he needed it.  Clocks were on a cart following each group and if you missed your time you got a one shot penalty. There were no penalties at all over the first two days and only one or two over the weekend

Jeff Evagues

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2019, 12:50:50 PM »
One episode at Riviera stood out to me as taking the pre-shot routine to an absurdity. JT had chipped within 6 inches of the cup on the back nine (forget which hole); proceeded to mark; toss the ball to his caddie for a thorough and lengthy cleaning; placed ball; removed mark; then tapped it in. Crazy.


I question the group punishment aspect of putting a group on the clock when it is "out of position." It seems that whenever a group is placed on the clock, invariably poor shots ensue. If only one player is slowing the entire group, why should the others pay?

Did he triple check the line on his ball was straight like he normally does?
Be the ball

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2019, 12:51:28 PM »
If you fanboys really want change organize a boycott of the tour sponsors. If every golfer quit buying Titleist for a year they would listen. Unless of course the people bitching don't spend any money on the game. Boycott ball retrievers. That's the ticket.

Lou_Duran

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2019, 01:20:54 PM »
Is there evidence that PGA Tour Golf is losing viewership, TV revenues, and attendance?  I think that purses are at all time highs and growing.  Might this slow play problem at the tour level be more of an irritant to a relative few here than to those paying the freight?  Not too many retail and casual golfers among us.  We might wish to consider that the big boys are playing a very different game (though I would probably enjoy the tumult created by a few 2-stroke penalties and the occasional DQ- it sure would give the writers and opiners a lot to whine about).  I've seen how much deliberation a $5 putt can create at the club level; add four or five zeroes to that and maybe taking extra time is understandable.

MCirba

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2019, 01:28:18 PM »
Mike Cirba- I think that distance off the tee has little to do with the problem.  Pre-shot routines, strategizing with a caddie or yardage book, and deliberations on and around the greens seem to me to be the bigger issues.  I worked a USGA Women's Amateur qualifier a couple years back where many of the players (many on college teams) could not pull the trigger without the direction, approval, and alignment by their caddies, even on a 2' putt.

Lou Duran,

My theory is not that increases in driving distance since say 1970 are causing slower play.   My theory is that the rate of increased driving yardage as a percentage will likely parallel the time spent per round on the tour.   

Just a hunch but I'm confident until proven otherwise.   ;)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2019, 01:48:24 PM »
Does Pine Valley have a slow play problem?

Pat Burke

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2019, 01:52:36 PM »
If you would allow me to take a devils advocate position for a moment.
And I’m in no way condoning the pace of play seen regularly in tournament golf


On the pga tour, Riviera has a normal sized field, which is actually smaller for winter and the short daylight hours.
So, in the first two rounds, if a group plays the front nine in 2 hours, they would have to wait to tee off on their 10th hole.  When the fields expand to 156 even worse.


There is little chance fields can be made smaller, getting opportunities to play is the focus.


Now, after the cut, there isn’t the overlap, AND typically play is in twosomes  and the pace still sucks.  But playing quickly is not incentivized in those pre cut rounds and as a player you develop a pace of play that fits into the world around you.  I literally had to slow down in my rookie year, I spent so much time standing around my crazy assed adhd brain just got too busy.   I learned to actually slow my pace to fit everything, especially the first two rounds.


I did play a Sunday round first off with Calcavecchia in just over 2 hours.  We both shot 67 and actually had an official come up to us to see if we were actually even trying.  We finished 5 holes ahead of the group behind us.  The culture is pretty screwed when it comes to pace, but with two tee starts fast is out.  But glacially slow should not be acceptable

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2019, 01:59:31 PM »
Pat,


Exactly, just as a courteous member of a private club will slow dow if he sees some guests ahead struggling. There is no reason to ruin your day and theirs by rushing. Of course this is easily managed by carefully choosing your tee times. Once again...A touch of not getting exactly what you want and liking it.

Lou_Duran

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Re: How slow can they go?
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2019, 02:22:45 PM »
Mike Cirba- I think that distance off the tee has little to do with the problem.  Pre-shot routines, strategizing with a caddie or yardage book, and deliberations on and around the greens seem to me to be the bigger issues.  I worked a USGA Women's Amateur qualifier a couple years back where many of the players (many on college teams) could not pull the trigger without the direction, approval, and alignment by their caddies, even on a 2' putt.

Lou Duran,

My theory is not that increases in driving distance since say 1970 are causing slower play.   My theory is that the rate of increased driving yardage as a percentage will likely parallel the time spent per round on the tour.   

Just a hunch but I'm confident until proven otherwise.   ;)


And I know how well you hold to your theories and hunches!  You do know that correlation does not necessarily suggest cause and effect.  Perhaps as distance increases, architects toughen up the LZs and green complexes, and staff tuck hole locations to maintain some distant connection to par and historical reference.

I suppose you could argue that longer driving is making these folks do that, so it is indeed improvements in the ball, implements, physical and psychological fitness, technique and practice, evolution and natural selection that are slowing the game down.  I can see how one with statist orientations might seek a statutory ban on "progress".  Perhaps the pros should be required to play a floater, but maybe hitting longer clubs into the greens will slow things down further; just a hunch.

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