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Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
$10M & Change
« on: February 17, 2019, 12:13:51 PM »
If you had capital (say $10M (US)), what course(s) would you buy?

Rules: Course must have sufficient architectural merit and be currently for sale or under ownership that might be willing to sell.  Wondering about pure golf properties (no tennis, no pool, etc.).

Wondering if there are hidden (or obvious) gems that fit either criterion.

I'm not talking about repurposing...focused on golf courses that would remain as such.

A couple of years ago, I might have said Dismal River, but it doesn't fit anymore.

WW
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 12:23:46 PM by Wade Whitehead »

Brock Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2019, 12:50:49 PM »
Just for golf reasons, I'd buy Hesperia GC in Hesperia, CA. Great track that was once a PGA tour stop around the late 50's, early 60's. bought by the city of Hesperia for the water table under the course, the course has been maintained at the bare minimum and has lost its appeal. Probably could buy it for far less than $10M, but it would take a few $ to get it up to standard. In reality, this course has very little hope. Most courses in the High Desert of SoCal are barely hanging on. Add a dwindling golf population and you can understand why no one will buy this course.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2019, 01:36:12 PM »
If you were to buy a course you would probably need that much to have in reserve to keep it operating.


Here's one that will probably make a lot of people take issue -I would buy Tobacco Road and blow it up:}

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2019, 02:43:31 PM »
This exercise reminds me of the old question of how to turn $10 million into $1 million?  Buy a golf course.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2019, 04:06:21 PM »
Is this strictly a hypothetical for the treehouse or is it a due diligence exercise for the Dormie Network?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2019, 04:54:30 PM »
Is this strictly a hypothetical for the treehouse or is it a due diligence exercise for the Dormie Network?


Good question!


The answer depends entirely on whether the goal is to make money, or just to own something cool.


There are certainly a lot of good courses which could be bought for $10m.  The highest ranked ones are in remote spots; the potentially more profitable ones are failing clubs in big markets.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 04:59:48 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2019, 07:00:32 PM »
Thank you Eric!
Getting a little ridiculous...

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2019, 07:20:19 PM »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2019, 07:23:45 PM »
Riverfront, 10 mill may not be enough--It is too hard for a public anyone can tee it up course, bunkers need to be re-done and if TD & Team would have a chance to do it again, would the greens of 5 & 9 be flattened a little bit for more pin locations and would the amount of bunkering be reduced?  The greens need to be one of the ultra dwarfs and not bent.  The range needs a lot of drainage work.


I am concerned about the future of the course.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2019, 07:30:38 PM »
Is this strictly a hypothetical for the treehouse or is it a due diligence exercise for the Dormie Network?
It's a hypothetical.  Sorry if anyone takes it differently.

I was surprised when the Dormie Network bought Hidden Creek, because I didn't know it was for sale (or that the owners were ready to part ways, whichever the case was).  I had heard lots of good things about the place and just assumed, I guess, that it wouldn't change hands.

Purely curious about other courses in a similar position.  There are courses in my area for sale but are pretty run of the mill.

Appreciate the responses.

WW
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 08:02:55 PM by Wade Whitehead »

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 07:32:12 PM »
Is this strictly a hypothetical for the treehouse or is it a due diligence exercise for the Dormie Network?


Good question!


The answer depends entirely on whether the goal is to make money, or just to own something cool.


There are certainly a lot of good courses which could be bought for $10m.  The highest ranked ones are in remote spots; the potentially more profitable ones are failing clubs in big markets.
Tom:

Let's assume the goal to just to own something cool/interesting.  What comes to mind?

WW

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2019, 08:00:08 PM »
Four Streams in Beallsville, Maryland.  A great fun and challenging golf course with a fairly modest clubhouse with enough room for drinks and lunch.  Then I would hire Tommy Williamsen to be the Evangelist of the club.  Who could be better? He loves the place and who could do a better job evangelizing than a retired preacher?

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2019, 08:11:17 PM »
Four Streams in Beallsville, Maryland.  A great fun and challenging golf course with a fairly modest clubhouse with enough room for drinks and lunch.  Then I would hire Tommy Williamsen to be the Evangelist of the club.  Who could be better? He loves the place and who could do a better job evangelizing than a retired preacher?


I'm in!! I was a member for 15 years. It is an excellent test of golf and a great place to spend a day.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 08:17:08 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2019, 09:40:51 PM »
Kankakee Elks in Kankakee, Ill.  Many on here know it as a mid 20's Langford & Moreau design that is still holding up, but would really need a restoration to get it back in shape.  Bunker and tree work particularly, IMHO.
Maybe I'm not paying attention, but I see that they are actually selling home lots on the river and the 10th hole, thus they probably need cash I would assume.
The biggest issue here is that Kankakee is about an 75-90 minutes south of Chicago and you need those golfers to come down to support any money put into the course as you would need to raise rates slightly.  It is cheap by almost any standard 30 bucks to walk and 40 to ride for everyone, although Juniors/Seniors can do it for 17/25 which is a steal.
My grandparents lived in Kankakee and my mom is from there.  My sister and her family live there now so I selfishly would love to see this course get back to it's former glory. It is still in decent shape so not desperate right now, but maybe a couple million in renovation cost and it could get quite a bit of attention again.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2019, 09:52:52 PM »
Wolf Point
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2019, 10:28:22 PM »

Tom:

Let's assume the goal to just to own something cool/interesting.  What comes to mind?

WW


That's the second time this evening someone has asked me to post business advice here, for free.  Sorry, but that's the sort of thing I get paid for.

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2019, 12:27:31 AM »
Is this strictly a hypothetical for the treehouse or is it a due diligence exercise for the Dormie Network?


Seriously, what gives?!?
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2019, 12:28:56 AM »
Is this strictly a hypothetical for the treehouse or is it a due diligence exercise for the Dormie Network?
It's a hypothetical.  Sorry if anyone takes it differently.

I was surprised when the Dormie Network bought Hidden Creek, because I didn't know it was for sale (or that the owners were ready to part ways, whichever the case was).  I had heard lots of good things about the place and just assumed, I guess, that it wouldn't change hands.

Purely curious about other courses in a similar position.  There are courses in my area for sale but are pretty run of the mill.

Appreciate the responses.

WW


Pathetic.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2019, 03:04:55 AM »
Here's one that will probably make a lot of people take issue -I would buy Tobacco Road and blow it up:}

[/size]For some, a course near Balmedie just north of Aberdeen might similarly come to mind![size=78%]
[/size]:)atb[size=78%]

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2019, 06:03:43 AM »
Dormie Network sycophants...you have been warned.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2019, 08:12:48 AM »



Hidden Creek a  very nice place but the business model for most investors never worked. Not enough high net worth individuals here all the time to fill the place. Roger and Edwina took great pride in their club and perhaps in a different location would have achieved even more success.


What many golf course experts don't understand is that to keep really quality employees you need volume and people coming and going . Many rich golfers don't want too many people sharing their golf course so it creates a catch 22. No tipping policies, restrictive rules are tough to manage so it requires a real feel for your peeps. Gotta make if fun, and perhaps push the pace of play without losing too many slowpokes


I'm not just talking Gm's and head professionals and the like , who often make good money. The staff all the way down the line is so important to daily operations from the guys who greet you and  grab your bag upon arrival to the cleaner who scrubs the bathroom and makes it a nice place to visit. Without them no operation is really good, and they often are lost in the shuffle of big marketing gurus who promise they can draw people to your venue. At the end of the day its the little conveniences and appreciation for your business that makes or breaks it for golf course operators.


I would argue (love doing that lol) that the business of golf can be a good one, but you might need to look at it a little differently than might seem obvious. Find a great location, price it to draw in good members and guests, and keep your place neat , clean and have respect for the game and what draws people to it. At the end of the day its consistency of product and care for your players that wil make you get the extra business to succeed .


« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:08:59 AM by archie_struthers »

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2019, 08:46:03 AM »
The Addington.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2019, 09:56:40 AM »


I'm not just talking Gm's and head professionals and the like , who often make good money. The staff all the way down the line is so important to daily operations from the guys who greet you and  grab your bag upon arrival to the cleaner who scrubs the bathroom and makes it a nice place to visit. Without them no operation is really good, and they often are lost in the shuffle of big marketing gurus who promise they can draw people to your venue. At the end of the day its the little conveniences and appreciation for your business that makes or breaks it for golf course operators.




Don't blame the little guy if he isn't properly trained. I was recently at a high end club, where I am not a member, and the on course bathroom was occupied by one of the greens staff for a full 30 min. I know because I was desperate and spotted his mule from the preceding tee. We were walking and he had a vehicle. Come on man, take it to the barn.


i.e. Mule is a term commonly used to describe a vehicle used to transport tools and such during maintenance operations.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2019, 11:19:30 AM »

I would argue (love doing that lol) that the business of golf can be a good one, but you might need to look at it a little differently than might seem obvious. Find a great location, price it to draw in good members and guests, and keep your place neat , clean and have respect for the game and what draws people to it. At the end of the day its consistency of product and care for your players that wil make you get the extra business to succeed .


Advice worth paying for.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2019, 11:54:53 AM »



Hidden Creek a  very nice place but the business model for most investors never worked. Not enough high net worth individuals here all the time to fill the place. Roger and Edwina took great pride in their club and perhaps in a different location would have achieved even more success.


What many golf course experts don't understand is that to keep really quality employees you need volume and people coming and going . Many rich golfers don't want too many people sharing their golf course so it creates a catch 22. No tipping policies, restrictive rules are tough to manage so it requires a real feel for your peeps. Gotta make if fun, and perhaps push the pace of play without losing too many slowpokes


I'm not just talking Gm's and head professionals and the like , who often make good money. The staff all the way down the line is so important to daily operations from the guys who greet you and  grab your bag upon arrival to the cleaner who scrubs the bathroom and makes it a nice place to visit. Without them no operation is really good, and they often are lost in the shuffle of big marketing gurus who promise they can draw people to your venue. At the end of the day its the little conveniences and appreciation for your business that makes or breaks it for golf course operators.


I would argue (love doing that lol) that the business of golf can be a good one, but you might need to look at it a little differently than might seem obvious. Find a great location, price it to draw in good members and guests, and keep your place neat , clean and have respect for the game and what draws people to it. At the end of the day its consistency of product and care for your players that wil make you get the extra business to succeed .


I can testify to the fact that Archie practices what he preaches at Greate Bay CC in NJ. I haven’t met an owner that’s more gracious or in tune with the needs of the club or it’s members. If I lived in the area I would run not walk to join assuming of course that they haven’t already surpassed their quota of Shanty Irish. ;D

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