[Tommy Williamsen]

We all know stories of Bobby Jones buying Fruitlands for Augusta National, and Crump seeing his future Pine Valley out of a train window. I guess as a kid JN hunted on the site of Muirfield Village. Lester George had his eye on what would become Ballyhack for many years before a sale took place. When I was a member at Four Streams, I knew it had been a farm on which one of our members lived as a kid. I am not sure which stories are even true. and which ones are manufactured.


I am always curious to know how an owner or group of investors decided on a specific piece of ground. Why did Fownes buy the land for Oakmont etc.

[Thomas Dai]

As I understand it, when Dr Alister MacKenzie was approached by Worcester GC (that's UK Worcester) to build them a new course he was taken to inspect two sites that were under consideration. One site was on clay, the other site on sand. Dr MacK' told them to purchase the one on the sandy site. They did and the course, slightly modified due to modern day housing intrusions, is still there circa 90 yrs later.
atb

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:


I will list off a few of mine that I can respond off the top of my head, as indicative of general causes:


High Pointe:  the client already owned it as farmland, thought it would be good land for a golf course
The Legends:  client bought as big a site as he could find with as few wetland areas as possible [until the law changed]
Black Forest:  family ownership
Stonewall:  the founders searched for a while for an ideal plot, where the owner would be willing to work with them on a long-term purchase plan.  They had another property tied up for a while first; that's now Bellewood CC.
Beechtree:  client owned it as ground for industrial development, but wetlands laws made that difficult, and he was into golf


Bandon:  purchased specially for a golf project, though Pacific Dunes' land was bought later out of the personal bankruptcy of a neighbor
Cape Kidnappers:  purchased specially for a golf / resort project
Barnbougle:  family land that couldn't be farmed; someone else wanted to buy it for a golf project, ultimately the landowner proceeded
Ballyneal:  purchased from another family in town for golf project; boundaries renegotiated after I'd come up with layout
Rock Creek:  purchased specifically for a private retreat; golf was not the main objective but certainly a consideration


So, for me it's about 50/50, but for most of the famous projects the client looked for the ideal piece of ground first.  There are only a couple of times when I've gotten involved before they had bought ground, or at least narrowed it down to one or two pieces.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy:


I will list off a few of mine that I can respond off the top of my head, as indicative of general causes:


High Pointe:  the client already owned it as farmland, thought it would be good land for a golf course
The Legends:  client bought as big a site as he could find with as few wetland areas as possible [until the law changed]
Black Forest:  family ownership
Stonewall:  the founders searched for a while for an ideal plot, where the owner would be willing to work with them on a long-term purchase plan.  They had another property tied up for a while first; that's now Bellewood CC.
Beechtree:  client owned it as ground for industrial development, but wetlands laws made that difficult, and he was into golf


Bandon:  purchased specially for a golf project, though Pacific Dunes' land was bought later out of the personal bankruptcy of a neighbor
Cape Kidnappers:  purchased specially for a golf / resort project
Barnbougle:  family land that couldn't be farmed; someone else wanted to buy it for a golf project, ultimately the landowner proceeded
Ballyneal:  purchased from another family in town for golf project; boundaries renegotiated after I'd come up with layout
Rock Creek:  purchased specifically for a private retreat; golf was not the main objective but certainly a consideration


So, for me it's about 50/50, but for most of the famous projects the client looked for the ideal piece of ground first.  There are only a couple of times when I've gotten involved before they had bought ground, or at least narrowed it down to one or two pieces.

It is not surprising that the land was  already owned by the client. 
Pat Ruddy was looking for the ideal land for the European Club and saw the present site while on a helicopter tour.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm surprised that, unlike Thomas' story of Dr Mac at Worcester, modern day clients aren't asking for architects' advice before selecting a site. It seems to make so much practical sense that the only reasons I can think of for not doing so are financial (eg they don't want to bring in, and pay for the services of, an architect that early on in the process); and/or 'procedural' (eg they don't want to tie themselves to one architect and his/her vision right off the bat, but instead want to later on have several different architects pitching their routings & services). But even then, with new course construction being what it is, modern-day clients could likely get the practical advice early on (from one architect) and then still insist on having routing proposals (from several other architects). For the architects' sake, I wouldn't like them doing that, but I imagine then could/would.
P

[James Brown]

When did rail line access stop becoming such a big consideration in the U.K.?

[Adrian_Stiff]

When did rail line access stop becoming such a big consideration in the U.K.?

Probably between 1950 and 1960

[Jeff_Mingay]

Most of the pre-World War II era courses I've worked on are sandy. Like the story about Mackenzie at Worcester above, it made even more sense than it does now to build golf on sand. I think a lot of clubs back then looked specifically for sandy sites; especially when they had good advice from knowledge people.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It makes sense for a client to ask for input from an architect. I know some GCA were given difficult sites with which to work. Some of the mt courses in Colorado must have been challenges not only to route but to grade.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Certainly in my opinion from the UK perspective architects are rarely involved before the purchase of the land. You kinda get what your given.

[Thomas Dai]

Would it be fair to say that in general terms, back in yonder times when crops were grown by farmers in the same country or region as the consumers, ie unlike now, land good for agriculture was more sought after, and sandy soils aren’t known for being particularly friendly for growing crops, so when golf started to move inland the less good agricultural land was favoured. As the importance of farming in the home country or region declined however, so the availability/price of land previously used for farming became more attractive and golf spread to encompass more ex-farming land.
Atb

[Doug Hodgson]

The club history of Royal Montreal GC describes the move of the club in the mid-50's to its current (third) location on Ile Bizard.  The previous 36 hole facility was in Dorval, where it moved in 1896 at which time Dorval would have been seen as a distant suburb.  By 1950 though, with expansion of the city, new freeway construction, and the expansion of the nearby international airport, it was clear that a new site for the club was required, but no plan had been developed to find one. Around this time, a member who enjoyed hunting on the then near-wilderness of Ile Bizard thought there was some property there well-suited for golf and approached some board members.  The board looked at the property along with Robert Trent Jones, who thought it would be an excellent site for a golf course, which it indeed is,  what with its gently rolling parkland topography, natural wetland areas, and sandy loam soil.  The idea was that Trent would design two courses, one at first and another a few years later. In the event the club decided it wanted all 36 holes (which actually wound up being 45 holes) built all at once.  As Trent's docket was too full for such a job, he was dropped and his arch-rival Dick Wilson hired instead.   It is said that Jones was significantly chagrined by this....

[Tommy Williamsen]

There are stories about architects given a large amount lot and it not being enough. I guess Fazio was give a thousand acres for Sage Valley and asked for more. Hard to know fact from fiction.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In most of my experience, the site was chosen by the owner, most likely because they already owned it.


At Quarry of Giant's Ridge and Tangleridge in TX, I was consulted about site selection.  Both times, they didn't follow my direction. 


At GR, the choices included a few miles of lake front, but after the environmental permitting phase they opted to use the old quarry for optics.  They did ask what kind of golf course I could put in there and were skeptical when I told them it could be great.


For the city of Grand Prairie, they also had a lake front site, but it would have been leased land, and to them, going to a parcel they had bought for a park and owned outright was a bigger factor than a waterfront course.


I am sure there are others among my courses that I am forgetting off hand and I do have client in Europe right now who asked my input before finalizing his deal (also ocean front).


I guess the short version is, existing property, cost to acquire, cost to permit, or extend utilities and many other factors beyond suitability go into it.  I even think Ross or Mac wrote in one of their books that a course could be built nearly anywhere, but the site factors (including having enough irrigation water) have to be in place.  Still true today.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeff, if given the option would you have purchased the quarry site? The course sure came out good.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff, if given the option would you have purchased the quarry site? The course sure came out good.

I knew we could do well there.  We took them to see World Woods, Tobacco Road and a few other Quarry courses because at first they didn't believe it could be done.  (They made me promise the difficulty level would be closer to WW than TR, which I would have done anyway)  I knew the contrast of turf vs the quarry spoils would be dramatic.  I wasn't disappointed but my first reaction was the Legend's most photographed hole was on the lake, so how much pub would you get from a course across the lake with 7-9 water holes?


And, I understood the public perception of fixing a ruined site vs. possibly polluting the lake and reducing the natural state of the woods (which have now had a housing tract of lake homes added) 


There was actually a lot more land available, most of it north of the clubhouse on that big spoil pile.  My original routing had 1 and 2 going along the quarry lake, the 3rd being an uphill punchbowl par 3 to the top, and then parading around the top, near the ledge for great views all around before a 120 foot drop shot coming back down for the ninth.  The soil engineers were worried the upper holes would sink and the proposed 9th ran through an old rail locomotive service facility, which the EPA would have required them to spend an uncapped amount estimated at several million to use.  They were environmentalists, but not environmentally committed to add millions to the bond cost.


So, the relevance to the thread is that sometimes sites get purchased for reasons most never think of, sometimes courses get directed to portions of sites for reasons never thought of.

[Duncan Cheslett]

From the wide reading I've done on MacKenzie, it would seem that the typical procedure would be for the founders of a new club to find a piece of land and then call in Dr Mac to advise on its suitability for a golf course.


He then seems to have sent out variations of the same stock letter, more often than not containing the phrase "agreeably undulating without being too hilly" and reassurances that the proposed course would be "the finest in the district."

This was normally sufficient to prompt the founders to finalise leases for the property and to appoint the good doctor as architect.
 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Duncan, who owned the land on which Reddish Vale and Cavendish were built?

[Ira Fishman]

According to the Community’s and the Club’s history, the developers of the Hope Valley neighborhood would not commit to the project until Ross signed off of on the land as being a good site for the course.


Ira

[John Emerson]

The couple of guys I’ve known to build courses always owned the land prior and decided to build.  Granted both tracts were huge and the architect could kinda cherry pick what he liked.  But soil type and water access are of utmost importance when considering a site.  But then again, with enough money, anything is possible.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()