[MCirba]

Still haven't received any confirmation notice on shipping particulars for my lithograph. 


Should I try Amazon?

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Save your money!  All you have to do is find a hill with trees on it and take a photo.  That is pretty much what the litho would look like.  Oh yeah, draw a straight white hash mark toward the top of the hill on the photo to represent the front bunker 

[Adam Clayman]

The way you are expressing your opinion as fact, makes me think your account has been hijacked by Matt Ward. Pardner.

[Mark_Fine]

Adam,
You have heard from others here who played the old hole quite often.  I played it over a dozen times (played Pebble at least 35 times total so I know you that golf course like it is my home club).  You have to admit the old hole was the worst one out there and the new one is much better.  That is fact.  If you still miss the old one, no problem, but you won’t win a debate that it was a better golf hole. 

[Adam Clayman]

Mark,
 My opinion is on the lessening of the whole, with the loss of the old hole.


It survived almost 80 years and was replaced by people whose architectural acumen was questionable, at best. Imo, they failed to respect 1/18th of the one thing that brought them to the dance. The Golf Course. If you listen to the loudest and most opinions, it is a golf course with a ridiculously high number of "worst holes", yet would be suspiciously absent from any World wide list.


So, call it the worst hole all you want. I know what you mean. But, I find it sad that something so important as the flow of the routing can be so easily ignored as a criteria for a hole's quality. Especially, as a transition hole. Which the old one was, but the new fails at. 

[Mark_Fine]

Adam,
Fair comments though I am not sure the new hole "disrupts the routing".  I walk Pebble with a caddie every time I play it and don't find the extra few steps that unenjoyable.  I also happen to be one of the few that don't think there are too many "worst" holes at Pebble Beach (though I don't care for #12 so much).  I don't think some of the "weak" holes, as people call them, are all that weak.  The exception in my opinion was the old 5th which I always thought was poor at best.  It was the one hole that was a blemish.  As far as Pebble's other more subtle and less flashy holes, I think they are just fine.  If every symphony was the same pitch (no soft to loud with only crescendos) it would probably suck.  You wouldn't want to have all car chases in the whole movie,...  Golf is the same.  Not every hole needs to be epic.  Cypress Point which I am so lucky to get to play just as often as Pebble is similar.  Not every hole is epic.  But not even the 18th at Cypress was as bad as the old 5th at Pebble.  In fact, the more I play 18 at CP, the more it has grown on me.  The old 5th at Pebble never grew on me.

We can agree to disagree     
Stay safe,
Mark

[Jim Hoak]

I have kept quiet on this subject, but as one who has played both the old and the new #5 many, many times, I feel compelled to jump in.  I don't know how anyone cannot believe that the new hole is a tremendous improvement over the old one.
My understanding is that the location of the new hole is where the original architects wanted to build the hole, but were unable to, because Pebble Beach Company had sold the land to someone who had already built a house there.  PBCo tried to buy the land for years and was finally able to buy it from the heirs of the original owner in the late 1990's.  So its current location completes the original intent of the architects; it does not change their wishes.
One of the most compelling things about the Pebble Beach course is how the original developer, Samuel FB Morse, a non-golfer, had the course built on the edge of the ocean. and sold home sites in-land.  Do you think many current-day developers would do that?  The current location of the 5th hole not only improves the course; it completes the original vision of Morse and the architects.

[Mike Bodo]

The current location of the 5th hole not only improves the course; it completes the original vision of Morse and the architects.

Excellently stated! Do any field drawings or sketches exist of what the original 5th hole was to have looked like prior it having been re-routed due the house that was built where the green was originally slated to go? The reason I ask is because I am curious to see how Nicklaus' redesign of the hole compares to the original architects plans.

[Mark_Fine]

If someone wants to know the real truth, I would love to play ANY golf hole right now, even the old 5th.  Talk about missing something.  I miss playing golf 

[Matthew Rose]

As far as Pebble's other more subtle and less flashy holes, I think they are just fine.  If every symphony was the same pitch (no soft to loud with only crescendos) it would probably suck.  You wouldn't want to have all car chases in the whole movie,...  Golf is the same.  Not every hole needs to be epic.

For a guy like me, playing there was a highly emotional experience, and the sheer intensity of playing 6 through 10 was almost overwhelming. I needed that break when I got to 11-12. I actually played much better through that stretch of holes because my concentration and temperament had resembled something more normal.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Best word I can think of for the old #5 was "constipated"

[Adam Clayman]

I have kept quiet on this subject, but as one who has played both the old and the new #5 many, many times, I feel compelled to jump in.  I don't know how anyone cannot believe that the new hole is a tremendous improvement over the old one.
My understanding is that the location of the new hole is where the original architects wanted to build the hole, but were unable to, because Pebble Beach Company had sold the land to someone who had already built a house there.  PBCo tried to buy the land for years and was finally able to buy it from the heirs of the original owner in the late 1990's.  So its current location completes the original intent of the architects; it does not change their wishes.
One of the most compelling things about the Pebble Beach course is how the original developer, Samuel FB Morse, a non-golfer, had the course built on the edge of the ocean. and sold home sites in-land.  Do you think many current-day developers would do that?  The current location of the 5th hole not only improves the course; it completes the original vision of Morse and the architects.

Jim, Your understanding may be slightly off. While it is true that Morse tried very hard to buy that property, I know of no one that knows that's exactly where the hole was suppose to go. Neville was an Amateur, after all. Which brings up the premise of respecting original intent. Assumptions are all we are left with.


It's interesting that when the deal to purchase that lot for $9mil was happening, The PB co. almost screwed the whole thing up.


After this thread, My hope is it was somebody like John Caldwell who wanted to balk at altering the course that made them. Appreciating the not so obvious special qualities this hole held in the routing.


And for all you that have opined on the hole being set up for a fade, you better re-think everything you think you know about how you think pros think.


P.S. On the original subject of who might miss the hole. On occasion, the company would stick some Name on the 5th tee. They would be there to meet, greet, and surprise the golfers. Arnie was the only one I was aware of that did this during my short stint there.

[Kevin_Reilly]

There are a few looks at the old 5th in this Shells episode with Snead vs Nicklaus - they upscaled the video to something close to HD.  I've copied the link at the start of the 5th.


https://youtu.be/qMnrQYyxOho?t=817

[Mark_Fine]

Good find Kevin.  Cool to see that old hole again. I still don’t miss it but as I said I would play most any golf hole right now as every course is closed in PA 


Interesting comments from Nicklaus but he is bias    It was a very hard hole but he called it the “weakest” at Pebble for a reason. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

Snead: 4 iron


Nicklaus:  short with a 6 iron

[Matt_Cohn]

Missing the old hole is understandable. But it's hard to imagine that if the current hole were the only one that ever existed, anybody would possibly suggest bulldozing it, building a house on the cliff, and replacing it with a par three farther inland!

[William_G]

Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?who started this topic and why    Archie Struthers 


if anything in life was self evident


thank you Charles Schwab


bored as shit must he be


the end

[MClutterbuck]

I played the the last year of the old 5th and the second year of the new 5th. In my opinion, the new hole is such a big improvement over the older one, that any negative impact on the routing (walking back) is more than compensated. This even before considering the aesthetic value of remaining on the coast.
 
No, I dont miss the old 5th at all.

[archie_struthers]

 




 I started the thread because I distinctly remembered the shot from the one time I played Pebble in 1992. Remembered it as a transition hole from the mainland to the ocean front and what opened up from there. Also it was quirky and I like quirk. Hadn't played the new hole or have seen it in person. So there it is.


It just so happened I received two personal messages from guys that worked there and actually preferred it to the new hole, which I don't have an opinion on for the reasons listed above. Enjoyed both conversations and we chatted about the difference in growing poa annua on the East coast vs. the West. Which morphed into a conversation on the incredible hybrid grasses on the greens at Oakmont.


It wasn't meant as anything but an honest question to those who had seen the new hole more than me. My memory was there was more to the original than met the eye, but of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

[Mark_Fine]

Archie,
You know I respect you and your opinion and it has been fun to have a friendly debate.  But I also know you know great architecture and good holes from not so good holes.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I’d be curious as to why your two friends preferred the old hole. Furthermore, you said you like quirk, but I really wouldn’t describe a blind bland uphill par three as quirky.  It really had little going for it but to each his own.


Stay well,
Mark

[archie_struthers]

I responded erroneously as it was Bill G who rattled my cage a bit. His question was "who started this thread
and why" . Misread the poster, my apologies to Senor Clutterbuck whose reply was more than fine!


I suppose that some may value a link to the past more than others. For me in this instance I remember clearly the difficulty of the shot that the old 5th presented. At least one pretty good player agreed that it wasn't an easy shot by any means. You really had to fit it thru the trees and make sure you didn't flip it left. When I watched it on the video of course the elevation is hard to get a feel for. It was definitely uphill.

The guys who I talked to in Cali said they used to sneak out and putt on the old green and that it could get really gnarly. Their memories may have been as much the fun they used to have more than the architecture. More on that later.

Again I have no reference today save pictures and tv as to the new hole, and I'll take the consensus that it's an improvement. But the question originally posed didn't denote that the old hole was better.

Mark, you've no doubt spent a little time in Avalon. They have rebuilt all the bars and restaurants. They are beautiful, slick and great for lovers of avocado toast and arugula. But I miss the Bongo Room , Phil's Tavern and the old Princeton. Just saying !

[Tommy Williamsen]

I guess it's because of this thread but I had a dream about five last night. I was playing Pebble and when I got to the fifth tee an angel gave me the choice of playing either the old or the new fifth. It only took a second for me to choose the new hole. I made three. Just missed my birdie putt.

[MCirba]

I guess it's because of this thread but I had a dream about five last night. I was playing Pebble and when I got to the fifth tee an angel gave me the choice of playing either the old or the new fifth. It only took a second for me to choose the new hole. I made three. Just missed my birdie putt.

Tommy,
From the sounds of this discussion it was likely you would have made 4 on the old hole. 
I've played neither but walked the course and saw the new one.   

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