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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0

Then the invasive species was also sown but in other areas. I had assumed that it was native species so my mistake. Why not use grasses that have similar characteristics in the various parts of the course?
Jon,In the south we have learned to not sprig ultradwarf greens until after any other sprigging is done and attached in fairways and roughs.  Much of the contamination is from WIND and tracking during sprigging.  I have one course in an open windy area where 419 contamination is very noticeable after 15 years on the greens exposed to the prevailing winds and almost zero on the ones that are protected.  Also aerification practices where the aerifier goes into an edge where a grass such as 419 is prevalent and then the plugs become mixed and blown or dragged in can be a cause.  And I'm not sure some rollers on mowers may transport it etc....JMO
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 04:06:09 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike,


a very nice bit of information but not really an answer to my question. As you point out, there are many ways grasses can be moved around the course the largest one being the stuff on the soles of golfers shoes but also animals, heavy rainfall...…


I was aware of this which is why I did not ask how. Still none the wiser as to the answer to my question though ???

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would happen at a local "parkland" course in the US if the fairways were never irrigated? Would they completely die in a drought? Would it eventually lead to a more consistent, firm and fast surface? Would it contain a number of dead patches and be unsightly? Would players lose their minds? What courses in the lower 48 have had success just turning the water off in the fairways?

I think if the equivalent (meaning higher than normal temps and very little rain for 2 months) heat wave currently happening in the UK hit parkland courses in the US there would be serious trouble keeping the grass alive.  Playing conditions would be poor.  Perhaps those courses already starved of water of many years would come out relatively unscathed, but nothing like ideal conditions.  We have gone well past ideal conditions in the UK unless water is applied.  Ideal conditions are when greens aprons and fairways sing in harmony. 

Right now greens are way off matching aprons and fairways at a most UK clubs unless clubs are watering fairways...even then its very difficult to do achieve in these conditions without cash.  I played one of my favourite courses a few weeks ago which always has great greens in summer and the greens were struggling...badly.  Last week at a top course the greens were in very poor nick. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike,


a very nice bit of information but not really an answer to my question. As you point out, there are many ways grasses can be moved around the course the largest one being the stuff on the soles of golfers shoes but also animals, heavy rainfall...…


I was aware of this which is why I did not ask how. Still none the wiser as to the answer to my question though ???
Jon,Sorry I can't find your question....what was it?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike,


a very nice bit of information but not really an answer to my question. As you point out, there are many ways grasses can be moved around the course the largest one being the stuff on the soles of golfers shoes but also animals, heavy rainfall...…


I was aware of this which is why I did not ask how. Still none the wiser as to the answer to my question though ???
Jon,Sorry I can't find your question....what was it?



Mike,


it was the last sentence in the quote you took from me.


'[font=]Why not use grasses that have similar characteristics in the various parts of the course?[/font]'


I did think the question mark might have given it away ;)

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Sean,


I entirely agree that the fairways, aprons and greens should be similar. Clubs and players need to be realistic about conditions and I would suggest that it is the poorer clubs who have suffered the least in the current drought. Yes, they may not hit the highs of perfection too often that the high end clubs enjoy more regularly but then they don't suffer the lows. They tend to have a more consistent good quality greens most of the time.


Yes, drought will have an impact but if the greens are really suffering then they are obviously not drought resistant enough. Too many UK clubs use the irrigation as a regular part of the program going for perfect conditions all the time which nature dictates are not possible.




Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike,


a very nice bit of information but not really an answer to my question. As you point out, there are many ways grasses can be moved around the course the largest one being the stuff on the soles of golfers shoes but also animals, heavy rainfall...…


I was aware of this which is why I did not ask how. Still none the wiser as to the answer to my question though ???
Jon,Sorry I can't find your question....what was it?



Mike,


it was the last sentence in the quote you took from me.


'[font=]Why not use grasses that have similar characteristics in the various parts of the course?[/font]'


I did think the question mark might have given it away ;)



You're essentially saying that all the turf on the course should be (in this case) a greens type untradwarf or go the opposite route, and the greens be a fwy type grass?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would happen at a local "parkland" course in the US if the fairways were never irrigated? Would they completely die in a drought? Would it eventually lead to a more consistent, firm and fast surface? Would it contain a number of dead patches and be unsightly? Would players lose their minds? What courses in the lower 48 have had success just turning the water off in the fairways?

I think if the equivalent (meaning higher than normal temps and very little rain for 2 months) heat wave currently happening in the UK hit parkland courses in the US there would be serious trouble keeping the grass alive.  Playing conditions would be poor.  Perhaps those courses already starved of water of many years would come out relatively unscathed, but nothing like ideal conditions.  We have gone well past ideal conditions in the UK unless water is applied.  Ideal conditions are when greens aprons and fairways sing in harmony. 

Right now greens are way off matching aprons and fairways at a most UK clubs unless clubs are watering fairways...even then its very difficult to do achieve in these conditions without cash.  I played one of my favourite courses a few weeks ago which always has great greens in summer and the greens were struggling...badly.  Last week at a top course the greens were in very poor nick. 

Ciao


Sean

I'm not sure of the context of that comment but most US courses would handle 8-10 weeks of that type of weather just fine and have survived in periods like that in the past (at least in the Mid Atlantic). It happens here a lot more frequently than in the UK. Obviously most clubs here have better irrigation than UK courses which certainly helps - if there was no irrigation then courses here would struggle - the plants need some water.

Admittedly I think turf that has been kept dry can handle it better than overly watered turf but overall supers in the US are more prepared for periods like that. Of course if it extends to 3+ months (like the Pasatiempo pics) then it would be difficult, especially when golf/cart/etc traffic is added.

On a side note (and I know it's not everyone over there) but some of the watering practices I'm seeing on social media in the UK at the moment would never happen here.......
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike,


a very nice bit of information but not really an answer to my question. As you point out, there are many ways grasses can be moved around the course the largest one being the stuff on the soles of golfers shoes but also animals, heavy rainfall...…


I was aware of this which is why I did not ask how. Still none the wiser as to the answer to my question though ???
Jon,Sorry I can't find your question....what was it?



Mike,


it was the last sentence in the quote you took from me.


'[font=]Why not use grasses that have similar characteristics in the various parts of the course?[/font]'


I did think the question mark might have given it away ;)



You're essentially saying that all the turf on the course should be (in this case) a greens type untradwarf or go the opposite route, and the greens be a fwy type grass?



No Anthony,


if I knew the answer to the question I would not need to ask it! If you don't know the answer then say so but if you do then please do tell.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike,


a very nice bit of information but not really an answer to my question. As you point out, there are many ways grasses can be moved around the course the largest one being the stuff on the soles of golfers shoes but also animals, heavy rainfall...…


I was aware of this which is why I did not ask how. Still none the wiser as to the answer to my question though ???
Jon,Sorry I can't find your question....what was it?



Mike,


it was the last sentence in the quote you took from me.


'[font=]Why not use grasses that have similar characteristics in the various parts of the course?[/font]'


I did think the question mark might have given it away ;)



You're essentially saying that all the turf on the course should be (in this case) a greens type untradwarf or go the opposite route, and the greens be a fwy type grass?



No Anthony,


if I knew the answer to the question I would not need to ask it! If you don't know the answer then say so but if you do then please do tell.







"Why not use grasses that have similar characteristics in the various parts of the course"
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[/size][/color]
Speaking for bermudagrass, no one wants to putt on 419, 328, Celebration or other types of fwy/rough type grasses. The turf cannot be mowed tight and is too coarse.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,
it was the last sentence in the quote you took from me.
'[font=]Why not use grasses that have similar characteristics in the various parts of the course?[/font]'
I did think the question mark might have given it away ;)
Got it.Well if we did that most supts would be fired and much of the golf we now have would no longer exist in the USA.  There is a reason golf started and flourished in Scotland and not the UAE.  It was Indigenous grasses that would work for playing the game.  So many of the golf courses we have today are dependent on conditions that are not indigenous to the area. 

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Wow,


I never knew it could be so difficult to get what I thought was a simple question answered!


I understand that it is not desirable to use grasses with distinctly different playing characteristics on a course as due to ingression from one area to the another (i.e. fairway into the green) makes for an uneven playing characteristic in the sward.


Hence my question of 'why not use grasses that have a similar playing characteristic?' Is there not one for the suitable for the fairway that will have the same playing characteristics if it ingresses into the apron or green and visa versa?
 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0

Wow,


I never knew it could be so difficult to get what I thought was a simple question answered!


I understand that it is not desirable to use grasses with distinctly different playing characteristics on a course as due to ingression from one area to the another (i.e. fairway into the green) makes for an uneven playing characteristic in the sward.


Hence my question of 'why not use grasses that have a similar playing characteristic?' Is there not one for the suitable for the fairway that will have the same playing characteristics if it ingresses into the apron or green and visa versa?
I answered it. There is not one in the south.   It is not done because you would be fired. :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Hi Mike,


must have missed when you said one didn't exist. Maybe someone should create one

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0

Wow,


I never knew it could be so difficult to get what I thought was a simple question answered!


I understand that it is not desirable to use grasses with distinctly different playing characteristics on a course as due to ingression from one area to the another (i.e. fairway into the green) makes for an uneven playing characteristic in the sward.


Hence my question of 'why not use grasses that have a similar playing characteristic?' Is there not one for the suitable for the fairway that will have the same playing characteristics if it ingresses into the apron or green and visa versa?
I answered it. There is not one in the south.   It is not done because you would be fired. :)



I thought that I explained this...? So much confusing in this thread or not wanting to hear the answer, not sure.



There is more flexibility on northern courses to have similar turf types-L93 tees, greens & fwys along with other courses using the newer bentgrasses in fairways. There isn't a grass for all surfaces in the south. It's getting better, fwy grasses are getting finer, but remember, ultradwarfs have only been around for 20 years.


This would be similar to sandbelt courses. Bermudagrass fwy, bentgrass greens. Temps get to 100*+ and the bentgrass can be managed. Not an entire course.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 11:02:33 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would happen at a local "parkland" course in the US if the fairways were never irrigated? Would they completely die in a drought? Would it eventually lead to a more consistent, firm and fast surface? Would it contain a number of dead patches and be unsightly? Would players lose their minds? What courses in the lower 48 have had success just turning the water off in the fairways?

I think if the equivalent (meaning higher than normal temps and very little rain for 2 months) heat wave currently happening in the UK hit parkland courses in the US there would be serious trouble keeping the grass alive.  Playing conditions would be poor.  Perhaps those courses already starved of water of many years would come out relatively unscathed, but nothing like ideal conditions.  We have gone well past ideal conditions in the UK unless water is applied.  Ideal conditions are when greens aprons and fairways sing in harmony. 

Right now greens are way off matching aprons and fairways at a most UK clubs unless clubs are watering fairways...even then its very difficult to do achieve in these conditions without cash.  I played one of my favourite courses a few weeks ago which always has great greens in summer and the greens were struggling...badly.  Last week at a top course the greens were in very poor nick. 

Ciao

Sean

I'm not sure of the context of that comment but most US courses would handle 8-10 weeks of that type of weather just fine and have survived in periods like that in the past (at least in the Mid Atlantic). It happens here a lot more frequently than in the UK. Obviously most clubs here have better irrigation than UK courses which certainly helps - if there was no irrigation then courses here would struggle - the plants need some water.

Admittedly I think turf that has been kept dry can handle it better than overly watered turf but overall supers in the US are more prepared for periods like that. Of course if it extends to 3+ months (like the Pasatiempo pics) then it would be difficult, especially when golf/cart/etc traffic is added.

On a side note (and I know it's not everyone over there) but some of the watering practices I'm seeing on social media in the UK at the moment would never happen here.......


Alan

The question concerned turning the water off...no?  Do US courses with irrigation not water fairways in the height of summer during a 2 month drought? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
A few things I ponder from a UK perspective.


Our greens are greener and softer in this drought than they are in normal uk summer conditions. Are we over doing things?


Are the fairways dead or just dormant? What will be the medium term impact if any?


If we had fairway irrigation in the UK (and most haven’t) would we use it? If so what would be the point? The game goes on with good scoring and the duffers enjoying being able to get on the long par 4’s in two.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0

Wow,


I never knew it could be so difficult to get what I thought was a simple question answered!


I understand that it is not desirable to use grasses with distinctly different playing characteristics on a course as due to ingression from one area to the another (i.e. fairway into the green) makes for an uneven playing characteristic in the sward.


Hence my question of 'why not use grasses that have a similar playing characteristic?' Is there not one for the suitable for the fairway that will have the same playing characteristics if it ingresses into the apron or green and visa versa?
Simplistically, there are many areas where indigenous grasses provide severely inferior playing conditions, primarily for greens.  In those same areas, the solutions that have been created to provide the best conditions for greens could be cost prohibitive to use on the entire golf course. 

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
1985 - 1990 I took care of a small town private club in Central Illinois. Canton Country Club. We had 25 acres of Kentucky Bluegrass fairways. No irrigation. We pulled gang mower 3 days a week at 1 inch cut. That was it for labor. We applied a preventative crabgrass application and spot sprayed broad leaf weeds. That was it for chemicals. The fertility came from a spring and fall application of methylene urea at .75 pounds n/m. That was it for fertility.


This provided very good playing conditions for most of the year. I went through two drought years and I wondered if the grass would come back it got so hot and dry. But after the first rain the bluegrass came right back.


In my opinion Kentucky Bluegrass is a better choice than Fescue for unirrigated fairways in the Midwestern soils. The rhizome root system is perfectly adapted to survive dormancy. And the thatch problems are nonexistent if you watch your fertility levels.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
I should have mentioned that the back nine was built in 1912 and propagated with Common Kentucky Blue. The front nine at Canton was built in 1966 and propagated with Merion Bluegrass. The Merion was far superior to the older Common.


If someone ever experiments with a low maintenance fairway turf, I would nominate Merion Bluegrass. The approaches where I carried the triplex cut out in to the Merion was just a bit over 1/2 and inch cut and the Merion adapted fine to that height of cut even in unirrigated areas. I can't remember the exact height. It was probably 5/8's. And it was a beautiful tight lie for unirrigated turf.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0



I thought that I explained this...? So much confusing in this thread or not wanting to hear the answer, not sure.




Could you please quote your post where you did ???

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
1985 - 1990 I took care of a small town private club in Central Illinois. Canton Country Club. We had 25 acres of Kentucky Bluegrass fairways. No irrigation. We pulled gang mower 3 days a week at 1 inch cut. That was it for labor. We applied a preventative crabgrass application and spot sprayed broad leaf weeds. That was it for chemicals. The fertility came from a spring and fall application of methylene urea at .75 pounds n/m. That was it for fertility.


This provided very good playing conditions for most of the year. I went through two drought years and I wondered if the grass would come back it got so hot and dry. But after the first rain the bluegrass came right back.


In my opinion Kentucky Bluegrass is a better choice than Fescue for unirrigated fairways in the Midwestern soils. The rhizome root system is perfectly adapted to survive dormancy. And the thatch problems are nonexistent if you watch your fertility levels.


Interesting. Not sure where you could get away with a 1" HOC on fairways this day in age. I agree with you that bluegrass fairways in drought conditions are really fun.  They get super bouncy.  The flip side is they don't roll out like bent.  More bounce, less roll.  I also agree that blue is superior to bent in terms of thatch production (less is better).
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
1985 - 1990 I took care of a small town private club in Central Illinois. Canton Country Club. We had 25 acres of Kentucky Bluegrass fairways. No irrigation. We pulled gang mower 3 days a week at 1 inch cut. That was it for labor. We applied a preventative crabgrass application and spot sprayed broad leaf weeds. That was it for chemicals. The fertility came from a spring and fall application of methylene urea at .75 pounds n/m. That was it for fertility.


This provided very good playing conditions for most of the year. I went through two drought years and I wondered if the grass would come back it got so hot and dry. But after the first rain the bluegrass came right back.


In my opinion Kentucky Bluegrass is a better choice than Fescue for unirrigated fairways in the Midwestern soils. The rhizome root system is perfectly adapted to survive dormancy. And the thatch problems are nonexistent if you watch your fertility levels.


Interesting. Not sure where you could get away with a 1" HOC on fairways this day in age. I agree with you that bluegrass fairways in drought conditions are really fun.  They get super bouncy.  The flip side is they don't roll out like bent.  More bounce, less roll.  I also agree that blue is superior to bent in terms of thatch production (less is better).


I disagree on the roll...at .400-.450, they roll just fine.  I agree with the bounce back after rain.  I managed my blue fairways to a defecit, constantly, and they always looked great after that first July monsoon.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would happen at a local "parkland" course in the US if the fairways were never irrigated? Would they completely die in a drought? Would it eventually lead to a more consistent, firm and fast surface? Would it contain a number of dead patches and be unsightly? Would players lose their minds? What courses in the lower 48 have had success just turning the water off in the fairways?

I think if the equivalent (meaning higher than normal temps and very little rain for 2 months) heat wave currently happening in the UK hit parkland courses in the US there would be serious trouble keeping the grass alive.  Playing conditions would be poor.  Perhaps those courses already starved of water of many years would come out relatively unscathed, but nothing like ideal conditions.  We have gone well past ideal conditions in the UK unless water is applied.  Ideal conditions are when greens aprons and fairways sing in harmony. 

Right now greens are way off matching aprons and fairways at a most UK clubs unless clubs are watering fairways...even then its very difficult to do achieve in these conditions without cash.  I played one of my favourite courses a few weeks ago which always has great greens in summer and the greens were struggling...badly.  Last week at a top course the greens were in very poor nick. 

Ciao

Sean

I'm not sure of the context of that comment but most US courses would handle 8-10 weeks of that type of weather just fine and have survived in periods like that in the past (at least in the Mid Atlantic). It happens here a lot more frequently than in the UK. Obviously most clubs here have better irrigation than UK courses which certainly helps - if there was no irrigation then courses here would struggle - the plants need some water.

Admittedly I think turf that has been kept dry can handle it better than overly watered turf but overall supers in the US are more prepared for periods like that. Of course if it extends to 3+ months (like the Pasatiempo pics) then it would be difficult, especially when golf/cart/etc traffic is added.

On a side note (and I know it's not everyone over there) but some of the watering practices I'm seeing on social media in the UK at the moment would never happen here.......


Alan

The question concerned turning the water off...no?  Do US courses with irrigation not water fairways in the height of summer during a 2 month drought? 

Ciao



Sean,


thats why I asked about the context of the statement;) I wasn't sure if it was referring to the original question on having no water or just a general comment on US courses running through a hot spell.


As I said above, most, if not all here have some sort of irrigation and can handle those spells just fine but they can eventually reach a point where the irrigation isn't enough. If there is no irrigation then they will go dormant and recovery will depend on the turf health going into dormancy and/or the traffic on it after the fact.


If it goes dormant properly and isn't too beat up from traffic it should have no problem recovering when the rains return. Rain is infinitely better at making turf recover than irrigation.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
A few things I ponder from a UK perspective.


Our greens are greener and softer in this drought than they are in normal uk summer conditions. Are we over doing things?


Are the fairways dead or just dormant? What will be the medium term impact if any?


If we had fairway irrigation in the UK (and most haven’t) would we use it? If so what would be the point? The game goes on with good scoring and the duffers enjoying being able to get on the long par 4’s in two.


Looking at it from the other side of the pond from what I've seen on line is that possibly they are being a bit over watered. Saying that since that weather isn't common over there it's hard for turf manager to know how far they can push things whereas in the US it's a yearly thing so you know from experience. Green and soft turf for a period is better than the possibility of dead turf in the long term.


Cool season turf will go dormant to protect itself - it shouldn't have much of an issue short medium term besides the brown color. Traffic can start wearing it out though which obviously isn't good and will result in dead/bare spots. Most, if not all should recover fine when the rain returns. It will depend on the heath of the plants going into the drought and the maintenance during and coming out of the period.


If you have fway irrigation why wouldn't you use it. At the very minimal it can prevent the soil drying down to the point it is cracking and it can keep some moisture in the profile so it will be easier to rewet. It can also extend the period before the plant shuts down which in turn reduces the period it is dormant. I'm not saying the water needs to be dumped on to keep it green and/or soft.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

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