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Bill Brightly

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Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« on: May 15, 2018, 06:37:30 AM »
The course looks really cool from the photos I've seen. Have there been GCA threads about C & C's work here?

Andy Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2018, 08:10:05 AM »
It's very cool. C&C weren't able to cut into the ground because it's a landfill so a unique project for them. Most the greens are perched up, some of them will remind of Pinehurst #2 with how they repel shots. It's almost always windy since the land fill sits above the trees and can get going pretty fast thanks to the new strain of Zoysia they use Trinity Zoysia. It will be fascinating to see how guys play it, there are some approach shots where you have to land wedges short of the green to get them on it when it's the firm and fast. It's a place where sometimes you have to aim away from the hole to get it close, a rarity for the PGA Tour.


I have been told the Tour has slowed down the course, notably growing the fairway grass around the greens to longer heights than it's kept for member play. I know they are very concerned about player grumbling with it being a new site that one of their biggest sponsors is behind AT&T. I really hope it's firm and fast, like the course was intended to be. I will be out there this week starting today and will give a more detailed report from the ground.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2018, 02:41:25 PM »
Zac Blair is in the field this week. Given his love of classic architecture he should do very well this week. Go Zac!!!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2018, 03:05:24 PM »
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/5/13/first-look-pga-tour-heads-to-coore-and-crenshaws-trinity-forest

"A big week for minimalism."  So have we reduced minimalism to mean there is no containment mounding on the holes' peripheries?

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2018, 04:40:45 PM »
A few threads going back to late 2012…
 
A New Golf Course in Dallas?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54210.0.html

Any news on the advances of the C&C project in Dallas?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58185.msg

Byron Nelson at Trinity Forest
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65813.0.html

Some Trinity Forest (Dallas, TX) Pics
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63762.msg

Trinity Forest Writeup
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63947.msg


"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2018, 07:55:34 PM »
Not very telegenic at first blush.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2018, 11:55:57 PM »



It does not have the natural advantages of Bandon Dunes or Sand Valley but I will be very interested in seeing how it is received. 



http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65813.msg1571325.html#msg1571325




Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 08:57:23 AM »
I think that some pros will not like it because their game is set up to aim at pins. The pros who do not like the course will be the ones who hit a good shot, in their mind, and then the ball ends up 40 feet away or in a bunker (like Chambers Bay). Pros don't like watching others hit a shot 20 yards right of the pin and then their playing partner has a 5 footer for birdie. Pros don't like watching their ball roll for 5 seconds after hitting a green.


Yeah, the rest of us love seeing the ball roll.


How similar is Trinity Forest to Streamsong? What would pros think of Streamsong?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

David_Tepper

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Mike Hendren

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Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 11:28:39 AM »
Notwithstanding my cheap-shot at GShack above I am very interested in watching the tournament at Trinity Forest.  I find the course very appealing from the photographs and likely right in my wheel-house.  While I love the pushed up greens with rolled down edges, I find it ironic that Pinehurst #2's greens have drawn much criticism from the cognoscenti here for devolving into inverted saucers due to decades of top-dressing. 

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 12:28:11 PM »
I don't understand the comments that suggest the pros won't like it because they can't 'aim at the pin'. They like Augusta National well enough, precisely *because* they can't aim at the pin. And any tour pro worth his salt can appreciate firm and fast conditons that allow for the ground game/run-up shot -- because more often than not that's what they encounter at The Open championship.
I don't know TF, but for many reasons I hope that it garners acclaim and is well regarded (by pros and average joes alike). But IMO we're not doing the course any favours or defending it effectively by using false labels (like 'minimalism') or specious arguments (like 'pros want to aim at pins') or an arrogant/superior attitude (like 'the average golfer doesn't understand').

« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 12:29:52 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 03:10:36 PM »
I don't understand the comments that suggest the pros won't like it because they can't 'aim at the pin'. They like Augusta National well enough, precisely *because* they can't aim at the pin. And any tour pro worth his salt can appreciate firm and fast conditons that allow for the ground game/run-up shot -- because more often than not that's what they encounter at The Open championship.
I don't know TF, but for many reasons I hope that it garners acclaim and is well regarded (by pros and average joes alike). But IMO we're not doing the course any favours or defending it effectively by using false labels (like 'minimalism') or specious arguments (like 'pros want to aim at pins') or an arrogant/superior attitude (like 'the average golfer doesn't understand').


Peter:


Most average golfers I have spoke to dislike the course, often vehemently.  They think it is in bad condition because the grass is brownish and the lies are very tight.  They think it is ugly.  They think that the contours render the place to be incomprehensible.  They think a links type course is a bad fit given the soil (I assume clay).   I also fear some of the negative viewpoint stems from the fact they charge raters full price to play. 


I think it could be good but thought it was difficult to form a decent opinion during one round.  That is part of the reason I am so interested to see how this plays out.  The pictures look great.  The hole descriptions look very interesting.  This thing checks all of the boxes from a GCA viewpoint, but from ground level it is difficult to see the bigger picture.   

Peter Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 03:26:54 PM »
Looks very cool and will be a kick to see how the pros handle it. Hopefully it will be firm/fast so that the ground game is necessary however Spieth doesn't think so (and he knows it better than any tour pro). From Geoff's site:
Quote
It's like an American links. You've kind of got to play it from the air, not really a bounce the ball up kind of links, but it is still a links-looking golf course. So it's weird, it's unique. It's actually -- Birkdale was kind of the closest comparison I've found to a links course that you kind of have to attack from the air. You get maybe four or five, six holes where you can bounce the ball up, but the way to get balls close is to come in with a higher shot. That's not necessarily true links. I don't want to say that about Birkdale because of the history and everything, but it's just the way I've found to play it well is that route.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 07:43:15 PM »
And let's don't confuse any links course with the days before there were sprinkler heads at places like St Andrews. Are there really more than six run ups on the Old Course(and I am not counting the driver running in)?

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 10:02:18 PM »
Thanks for all the responses, this is why GCA remains a great site. I particularly enjoyed this from Ari Techner's review, for those who did not read it:


The course is built on what was an active landfill until the mid 1960s. From the time the landfill closed until they started working on the course in 2014, it was used as an unauthorized dump site for many of the local citizens of South Dallas. You could find all kinds of things on the site including large appliances and boats… there was even an old car on what is now the 17th green.
Building the course was quite the undertaking due to the unique traits of the land. The entire site was capped by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers with an impenetrable cap, preserving the natural humps and rolls of the property. Then the entire property was covered with a minimum of 2 feet of sand. Due to the cap over the ground, Coore and Crenshaw could not dig down into the ground at all when building the course — they had to build up instead. They basically had to identify the lowest point of the lowest bunker floor and build the entire course up from there. They also could not plant any trees.
A new strain of grass was also invented just for the course and the desired firm and fast conditions. Being located in Dallas, the developer and designers knew that the normal warm weather Bermuda or Zoysia would not provide the desired conditions. So they invented what is now called Trinity Zoysia, which is a shallow root Zoysia hybrid that comes very close to imitating the seaside Fescue playing surfaces you see on true links courses.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2018, 12:22:57 PM »
Not sure whether this article is linked above but I liked this quote from Shackelford in GolfWeek:


Aesthetically, Trinity Forest will not impress on television due to the harsh Texas sun and traditional camera stands which flatten out the ground features. And that’s where this momentous debut for the minimalist design movement becomes fraught with danger. After all, for every reference you’ve heard about Coore and Crenshaw or Hanse or Doak or Bandon, the this is the first course by this tribe of old-school thinkers to be built with big-time Tour tournaments in mind


https://golfweek.com/2018/05/15/first-impression-of-new-byron-nelson-venue-this-is-going-to-get-wild/

Frank_M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2018, 12:39:27 PM »
I don't care about Trinity Forest because 1. it's a private club 2. it's cookie-cutter (does any new golf course have a fresh theme anymore?).

It feels like every new course I play or hear about is an inferior Bandon or iteration of Streamsong. It's like you can play one of them and know exactly what every other one is all about.

And to boot, they expect me to shell out three c notes and an additional C for a caddie for the "experience."

Can someone please build a new course that'll cost me under $50 that I can play in jeans and a t-shirt and carry my own bag? Then I'll get excited.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 12:45:36 PM by Frank_M »

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2018, 01:34:15 PM »
Thanks for all the responses, this is why GCA remains a great site. I particularly enjoyed this from Ari Techner's review, for those who did not read it:


The course is built on what was an active landfill until the mid 1960s. From the time the landfill closed until they started working on the course in 2014, it was used as an unauthorized dump site for many of the local citizens of South Dallas. You could find all kinds of things on the site including large appliances and boats… there was even an old car on what is now the 17th green.
Building the course was quite the undertaking due to the unique traits of the land. The entire site was capped by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers with an impenetrable cap, preserving the natural humps and rolls of the property. Then the entire property was covered with a minimum of 2 feet of sand. Due to the cap over the ground, Coore and Crenshaw could not dig down into the ground at all when building the course — they had to build up instead. They basically had to identify the lowest point of the lowest bunker floor and build the entire course up from there. They also could not plant any trees.
A new strain of grass was also invented just for the course and the desired firm and fast conditions. Being located in Dallas, the developer and designers knew that the normal warm weather Bermuda or Zoysia would not provide the desired conditions. So they invented what is now called Trinity Zoysia, which is a shallow root Zoysia hybrid that comes very close to imitating the seaside Fescue playing surfaces you see on true links courses.

Cookie Cutter!
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Frank_M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2018, 01:56:27 PM »
Thanks for all the responses, this is why GCA remains a great site. I particularly enjoyed this from Ari Techner's review, for those who did not read it:


The course is built on what was an active landfill until the mid 1960s. From the time the landfill closed until they started working on the course in 2014, it was used as an unauthorized dump site for many of the local citizens of South Dallas. You could find all kinds of things on the site including large appliances and boats… there was even an old car on what is now the 17th green.
Building the course was quite the undertaking due to the unique traits of the land. The entire site was capped by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers with an impenetrable cap, preserving the natural humps and rolls of the property. Then the entire property was covered with a minimum of 2 feet of sand. Due to the cap over the ground, Coore and Crenshaw could not dig down into the ground at all when building the course — they had to build up instead. They basically had to identify the lowest point of the lowest bunker floor and build the entire course up from there. They also could not plant any trees.
A new strain of grass was also invented just for the course and the desired firm and fast conditions. Being located in Dallas, the developer and designers knew that the normal warm weather Bermuda or Zoysia would not provide the desired conditions. So they invented what is now called Trinity Zoysia, which is a shallow root Zoysia hybrid that comes very close to imitating the seaside Fescue playing surfaces you see on true links courses.

Cookie Cutter!


None of this speaks to the interest of the finished product. It may be a unique development story, but if that’s what people think makes a tv viewer or paying consumer like a golf course...I think it’s far from it.


Besides that, I can name three courses within a 30 minute drive of my home with a similar story except for the strain of grass.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 02:02:58 PM by Frank_M »

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2018, 03:13:38 PM »
Zac Blair is in the field this week. Given his love of classic architecture he should do very well this week. Go Zac!!!

-4 today T12 right now
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2018, 03:20:22 PM »
FYI - DirecTV will be broadcasting this event in 4K HDR.   It'll be great to see C & C in 4K!

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2018, 03:23:14 PM »
Thanks for all the responses, this is why GCA remains a great site. I particularly enjoyed this from Ari Techner's review, for those who did not read it:


The course is built on what was an active landfill until the mid 1960s. From the time the landfill closed until they started working on the course in 2014, it was used as an unauthorized dump site for many of the local citizens of South Dallas. You could find all kinds of things on the site including large appliances and boats… there was even an old car on what is now the 17th green.
Building the course was quite the undertaking due to the unique traits of the land. The entire site was capped by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers with an impenetrable cap, preserving the natural humps and rolls of the property. Then the entire property was covered with a minimum of 2 feet of sand. Due to the cap over the ground, Coore and Crenshaw could not dig down into the ground at all when building the course — they had to build up instead. They basically had to identify the lowest point of the lowest bunker floor and build the entire course up from there. They also could not plant any trees.
A new strain of grass was also invented just for the course and the desired firm and fast conditions. Being located in Dallas, the developer and designers knew that the normal warm weather Bermuda or Zoysia would not provide the desired conditions. So they invented what is now called Trinity Zoysia, which is a shallow root Zoysia hybrid that comes very close to imitating the seaside Fescue playing surfaces you see on true links courses.

Cookie Cutter!


None of this speaks to the interest of the finished product. It may be a unique development story, but if that’s what people think makes a tv viewer or paying consumer like a golf course...I think it’s far from it.


Besides that, I can name three courses within a 30 minute drive of my home with a similar story except for the strain of grass.

If TV viewers don't like something different one week per year they can go find an over-watered, tree-lined, narrow course and get their fill.

I'm still confused by what you are complaining about re:Trinity Forest, its too expensive but its exactly the same as 3 other courses you can play --maybe even in jeans and a t-shirt.
 
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Frank_M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2018, 03:46:35 PM »
I'm still confused by what you are complaining about re:Trinity Forest, its too expensive but its exactly the same as 3 other courses you can play --maybe even in jeans and a t-shirt.


I never said it’s like 3 other courses I can play, I said the background story for Trinity is similar to 3 other courses within 30 minutes of my home.

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