[Ryan Farrow]

A new pet peeve of mine is driving past miles and miles of land that could have created a perfectly fine golf course only to end up at  a cart ball mountain course that shouldn't have been built in the first place.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I have played only two of your courses, but I am quite certain that you would not have routed the site at Old Head to produce Numbers 10, 17 and 18 let alone some of the interior holes on the front nine.

Ira:  I had 17 as a par 3, but where else would you go with the 18th hole?  They kept telling me the site was 140 acres, but that's measuring all the way to the water line; the usable area can't be much more than 100.  So you had to use all the land somehow or another.  I told them only half in jest that they could have the best nine hole course in the world, but of course that's not what they were after.

[Sean_A]

I think of Old Head as a wasted site because they built a course...not the course itself. In retrospect, a 9 holer would probably have been a better concept to have a course and retain proper public access. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

These are interesting threads for me because people assume too much.


I spent quite a bit of time studying the first two sites mentioned- Old Head for the original design, and Sandpines for a potential remodel - and I couldn't come up with anything much better than what's there, assuming you can't cut and fill along the coastline.


Sometimes, the site LOOKS good but there just isn't a really great solution to the puzzle.  Or maybe I'm just not smart enough to see it, but somebody else will, someday.


So for me, wasted sites are more a matter of inferior shaping and construction work.  That covers the whole range from Eddie Hackett at Carne (not enough money or shaping talent) to Perry Dye (too much money and ambition), and everybody in between who couldn't leave well enough alone.

Tom -- I don't quite agree with your characterisation of Perry, at least insofar as his work at Lykia is concerned. It's not a question of ambition, and only tangentially about money (ie, if there had been less of it, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did). It's a question of wrong-headedness -- the idea that a preconceived form of a golf course is better than one that responds to the actual site. (Your comment about 'couldn't leave well alone' however is spot on in this regard).

[Thomas Dai]

Whoops, wrong thread!
atb

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:


As Perry's first employee, I was trying to say the same thing with a term that left a bit more room for interpretation.

[Tom Ferrell]

Tom makes a great point about assumptions.  And spectacular sites are often the *most* encumbered in terms of regulating disturbance and construction - raising the risk of a "what if."  The course that first came to mind for me was Ocean Forest.  What a wonderful site, but somehow the course just doesn't seem to capture the beauty and feel of it.
[size=78%] [/size]

[Derek_Duncan]

Tom makes a great point about assumptions.  And spectacular sites are often the *most* encumbered in terms of regulating disturbance and construction - raising the risk of a "what if."  The course that first came to mind for me was Ocean Forest.  What a wonderful site, but somehow the course just doesn't seem to capture the beauty and feel of it.

Ocean Forest is an interesting example. I would say the property is a great setting, but not a great site.


Ocean views, holes along the big river and the lovely coastal forests offer great ambiance. But the site is flat and strung through with wetlands, and yes, agreed, the design on top fights it all the way through rather than accentuating it's assets.


Have to make the distinction between quality of setting and quality of site.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Have to make the distinction between quality of setting and quality of site.

Whistling Straits had a horrible site.

[Alex Miller]

A new pet peeve of mine is driving past miles and miles of land that could have created a perfectly fine golf course only to end up at  a cart ball mountain course that shouldn't have been built in the first place.

Dismal White isn't a cartball mountain course exactly... but man that's the feeling I got on the ride out to the first tee.

[Giles Payne]

Agreed - one really good hole , but a real missed opportunity

Broadstone and Hankley Common for me.


Two examples where the site outshines the course in the ground.

Hankley's a very good shout.

[Buck Wolter]

Bay Harbor -- between the Lake Michigan Coastline and the old quarry it should have been much better.

[James Boon]

First one that comes to mind for me is the PGA Centenary at Gleneagles especially considering the quality of the King's Course next door over similar land?


Cheers,


James

[Garland Bayley]

The original CG seems to indicate that Tralee qualifies for this list if I remember correctly.

[Doug Hodgson]

One course that stands out in my mind as disappointing is the East Course in North Berwick.  It is a beautiful site up the bluffs with great views.  The property may not otherwise be naturally suited for a great course, but my memory of the one time I played there several years back was of a lifeless and unimaginative design...just seems that there is potential for something more interesting there

[Michael Wolf]

There are way too many golf courses along the Alabama/FL gulf coast where it looks like the developers tried really hard to hide the fact that the courses are built atop sand.


But I think the all time "what could have been" has to be Spanish Bay.


Michael

[Phil McDade]

Blackwolf Run -- River. A course at odds, rather than in harmony, with the property on which it sits.

[BCrosby]

There are way too many golf courses along the Alabama/FL gulf coast where it looks like the developers tried really hard to hide the fact that the courses are built atop sand.

Michael

You might say the same thing of Florida in general. Lots of wind, lots of sand but the default model is almost never the obvious one.


Bob


Bob

[Stuart Hallett]

Moliets, France, bulldozed into obscure blandness.


Maybe I shouldn't say that, I live in Moliets

[Terry Lavin]

Bay Harbor -- between the Lake Michigan Coastline and the old quarry it should have been much better.

Great pick here. I’d rather visit the former quarry than play the course(s). The whole development is a real wart on Petoskey’s face, IMHO.

[Gib_Papazian]

It might be heresy, particularly since it was my father’s favorite course on Earth, but Spyglass really needed to locate the clubhouse at the bottom of the hill, adjacent to the dunes. It has always seemed a backwards use of the site - with a strange, awkward routing. Terrific golf course in any event, but I often wondered what it would look like if the entire property was rethought.


However, an epic example of congenital architectural vapidity has to be Atlantic GC - which retired the belt for most egregious waste of money and decent ground. The routing (I hear it has been rejiggered several times) is incomprehensible shit, the shaping and bunkering is thoughtless at best - and was five hours I can never get back.


 

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Gib-
You should get back to Atlantic--it's a great golf course.

[Cal Seifert]

I've heard Atlantic has made many changes to the course since its initial opening to improve it.  People I know that have played it like it much more than the Bridge but say it doesn't compare to the big names on the east end or even Southampton GC.

[James Brown]

These are interesting threads for me because people assume too much.


I spent quite a bit of time studying the first two sites mentioned- Old Head for the original design, and Sandpines for a potential remodel - and I couldn't come up with anything much better than what's there, assuming you can't cut and fill along the coastline.


Sometimes, the site LOOKS good but there just isn't a really great solution to the puzzle.  Or maybe I'm just not smart enough to see it, but somebody else will, someday.


So for me, wasted sites are more a matter of inferior shaping and construction work.  That covers the whole range from Eddie Hackett at Carne (not enough money or shaping talent) to Perry Dye (too much money and ambition), and everybody in between who couldn't leave well enough alone.

A dramatic ocean side site is not enough.  Old Head is a pretty flat piece of land with not a lot of internal movement.  Pretty similar to Torrey. 

[David Wuthrich]

Angela,


El Dorado Golf Club was actually on the site of what is now the Golf Club of Houston.

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