[John Kavanaugh]

We've lost the art of looking for where your ball likely is as opposed to where you'd like it to be.

That is going to cost friendships.

[Kalen Braley]

And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.


btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.

john,


I'm conservative by nature on the golf course, perhaps to a fault.  I rarely take the risky route and in many cases after a poor tee shot, I often play to take double bogey out of the picture, even if it means a hard par.

[John Kavanaugh]

A couple of months ago I learned that high handicaps carry 7 irons 170 yds with little effort. Today I find out that they rarely make X's. If I could bottle the dudes I play against I could make a fortune.

[Kalen Braley]

A couple of months ago I learned that high handicaps carry 7 irons 170 yds with little effort. Today I find out that they rarely make X's. If I could bottle the dudes I play against I could make a fortune.

John,


Not sure where you got that first bit of info from.  I've only played with one HH who could hit his is 7 iron that far, and certainly not with ease.


P.S.  Don't confuse 18s with 36s....  36s certainly take a lot more Xs and I think some of the better players in this forum equate the two, which is just as absurd as equating a 0 to an 18.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

This rule is a direct assault against the short straight hitter. It does nothing but promote bombing away at every drive setting us up for the bifurcation I have been telling you is coming all along. The pros stay exactly where they are at while we get even better longer hitting equipment and balls. When everyone starts hitting it 340 off the tee and taking drops inside 100 yds when one goes off line it's going to be fun, fun, fun. How do you not see this coming?

Again, the guy's hitting FOUR from his drop. The short straight hitter is hitting two.

[John Kavanaugh]

This rule is a direct assault against the short straight hitter. It does nothing but promote bombing away at every drive setting us up for the bifurcation I have been telling you is coming all along. The pros stay exactly where they are at while we get even better longer hitting equipment and balls. When everyone starts hitting it 340 off the tee and taking drops inside 100 yds when one goes off line it's going to be fun, fun, fun. How do you not see this coming?

Again, the guy's hitting FOUR from his drop. The short straight hitter is hitting two.

Erik,


Yes but I will be giving them a stroke on the hole and they will drop the ball in front of my drive that may not even be in the fairway itself. So, If I miss the green in regulation we will both be making approaches laying the same, net that is.


Typically in match play when your opponent hits a ball OB you can coast to victory with bogey even when giving a stroke. This takes that advantage away from the short straight hitter.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Yes but I will be giving them a stroke on the hole and they will drop the ball in front of my drive that may not even be in the fairway itself. So, If I miss the green in regulation we will both be making approaches laying the same, net that is.

Typically in match play when your opponent hits a ball OB you can coast to victory with bogey even when giving a stroke. This takes that advantage away from the short straight hitter.

I don't know what you're talking about.

They're hitting four. You're hitting two. You hit your approach shot, and they hit their approach shot. Even if they hit the green and you miss, they're putting for bogey, and you're chipping for birdie. Even if you give them a stroke, they're hitting their par putt, and you'll have a par putt after a chip, which you should still get closer than their approach shot.

Under the old rules, or the absence of this Local Rule in 2019+, they could hit their next shot and be hitting four… Yes, they could just OB that shot as well, and pick up, but they could also hit it even further down the fairway since they've got nothing to lose at that point. They're hitting 3 from the tee, or 4 from the pie shape area. Your logic isn't working here: if they're effectively hitting two from the fairway under the current rules (after the stroke you give them), you're not going to win a bunch of holes with a bogey.

[John Kavanaugh]

Erik,


Let's use one of the most famous great holes in the country as an example. The 8th at Prairie Dunes.


The most common miss is right into the gunch which results in a lost ball. My opponent hits his drive 270 yds but it drifts right and he suffers a lost ball. Because of the dog leg nature of the hole he takes his penalty and lays out next to the gunch leaving himself 140 yds to the hole. He now lays three hitting four.


I hit my drive down the middle of the fairway 240 yds leaving me 190 yds to the hole. If I am lucky I avoid the short green side right cluster of bunkers, which are death, and have a twenty yard chip to a blind hole. I now lay 2 hitting three.


Because I am giving him a stroke we basically lay the same and I have lost 90% of my advantage. If I do not avoid the bunkers short right I have no advantage at all.


The dogleg nature of the hole exacerbates this issue. It is a fools errand to hug the inside of that dogleg given the penal nature of the gunch. The player is receiving undo reward on his drop that he could have never received under the current rules.

[Garland Bayley]

So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.

How do you figure? It's a two-stroke penalty, they'll be hitting four, and a lot of those golfers are probably already just dropping up there and taking their ESC already (or adding only one penalty stroke).

Plus you honestly think that those 18 handicappers are losing 4 to 8 balls per round?

I know at least one that lost 18 in a round. Right Dick?

[Garland Bayley]

And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.


btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.

Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.

[Brian Finn]

And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.

Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.

If you and Kalen can control the distance and trajectory of your iron shots, are excellent putters, have strong course management skills, don't lose many balls, and seldom take an X (all things I've seen you two claim over the past few weeks), how on earth are you both high handicappers?  I'm genuinely interested in what a typical round (shot for shot) looks like for you. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The most common miss is right into the gunch which results in a lost ball. My opponent hits his drive 270 yds but it drifts right and he suffers a lost ball. Because of the dog leg nature of the hole he takes his penalty and lays out next to the gunch leaving himself 140 yds to the hole. He now lays three hitting four.

I hit my drive down the middle of the fairway 240 yds leaving me 190 yds to the hole. If I am lucky I avoid the short green side right cluster of bunkers, which are death, and have a twenty yard chip to a blind hole. I now lay 2 hitting three.

Because I am giving him a stroke we basically lay the same and I have lost 90% of my advantage.

You don't lay the same. You're 20 yards away from the hole, he's 140.

[John Kavanaugh]

I said I lost 90% of my advantage. After he takes his knee high drop our shots a equally as difficult. And if I'm in those bunkers mine is more difficult. Have you played the hole?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I said I lost 90% of my advantage. After he takes his knee high drop our shots a equally as difficult. And if I'm in those bunkers mine is more difficult. Have you played the hole?

You haven't lost 90% of your advantage. You're 20 yards, he's 140.

And the point was in comparison to the "old" (or for now, current) way: It's no different than this scenario: 1) you both hit the same first shot. 2) instead of dropping, he hits the tee shot to the same place as he dropped, or to a better place.

In that case, everything else is the same. You've not gained or lost anything, and if he hits a better tee shot, you've gained under the "new" rule if he chooses to do that.

[Kalen Braley]

And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.

Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.

If you and Kalen can control the distance and trajectory of your iron shots, are excellent putters, have strong course management skills, don't lose many balls, and seldom take an X (all things I've seen you two claim over the past few weeks), how on earth are you both high handicappers?  I'm genuinely interested in what a typical round (shot for shot) looks like for you.

Brian,


When did I ever say the first two?  My driver distance is medium short and my vector control is spotty.  Its by far and away the worst part of my game.  My iron play is the next worst part of my game, which due to my lack of distance means more often than not, I'm approaching with 7 thru 3 iron, not 8 thru wedge.  And the majority of the time those approach shots are coming out of the rough, which further reduces my chances at a GIR


So when you combine inconsistent driving, with so so iron play, it adds up to very few greens in reg, ergo very few pars, but also lots of single bogeys.  But what it does not mean is that my drives are 50+ yards off line very often, and I'm not topping shots left and right or laying sod over the ball.  It means i'm missing my intended spots most of the time, but not getting into big trouble very often like OB or Hazards, because I aim away from it.


Over 18 holes, this typically means 2-3 pars, 11-12 bogeys, 2-3 double bogeys, occasional triple, and 1 X...which more or less means shooting 90 thru 95.

[John Kavanaugh]

That is not true. He drops his ball at the ultimate garden spot on the inside of the dogleg. A spot impossible to hit in regulation because of the wind and slope of the ground. He also gets the benefit of the knee high drop which will be better than one randomly found on a regulation tee shot.


Look, I still prefer for my opponent to hit a ball OB. It's just not the penalty it use to be which takes away some of the advantage of being a short straight hitter. For example: I currently fully expect to win three holes per round due to forfeit. Under this new rule structure I may be lucky to win one and none at the tee. In a high limit game this is enough to turn a winner into a loser.

[Brian Finn]

And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.

Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.

If you and Kalen can control the distance and trajectory of your iron shots, are excellent putters, have strong course management skills, don't lose many balls, and seldom take an X (all things I've seen you two claim over the past few weeks), how on earth are you both high handicappers?  I'm genuinely interested in what a typical round (shot for shot) looks like for you.

Brian,

When did I ever say the first two?  My driver distance is medium short and my vector control is spotty.  Its by far and away the worst part of my game.  My iron play is the next worst part of my game, which due to my lack of distance means more often than not, I'm approaching with 7 thru 3 iron, not 8 thru wedge.  And the majority of the time those approach shots are coming out of the rough, which further reduces my chances at a GIR

So when you combine inconsistent driving, with so so iron play, it adds up to very few greens in reg, ergo very few pars, but also lots of single bogeys.  But what it does not mean is that my drives are 50+ yards off line very often, and I'm not topping shots left and right or laying sod over the ball.  It means i'm missing my intended spots most of the time, but not getting into big trouble very often like OB or Hazards, because I aim away from it.

Over 18 holes, this typically means 2-3 pars, 11-12 bogeys, 2-3 double bogeys, occasional triple, and 1 X...which more or less means shooting 90 thru 95.

Helpful perspective, thanks...and I apologize, as it has been mostly Garland making the claims - some of them just happen to be about you, so you get lumped in.  Garland is the one that can execute all of Tiger's 9 shots on demand.   

[Erik J. Barzeski]

That is not true. He drops his ball at the ultimate gardens spot on the inside of the dogleg.

And if he hits it OB or loses it toward the outside edge of the dogleg, he is in a worse spot.

You've found one hole where you lose SOME of your advantage (20 yards vs. 140 is not 90% of your advantage). There are holes where you'll gain more of an advantage. The Local Rule has him hitting four, while you're hitting two.

Don't like the Local Rule? You're the committee of your own little match, if you're just playing for a bet, so don't put the Local Rule into effect during your match. Otherwise, abide by the rules of the actual competition.

You're wrong that you're giving up much, and if the opponent has nothing to lose with the second tee shot, will actually end up benefitting sometimes, too, as their drop will be further back and possibly more off to the side than their second "free" tee shot.

[John Kavanaugh]

When Greg Norman lost his ball behind the 12th hole at Augusta would he have been able to drop his ball on the fringe and putt for par under this new rule? Yes I know real golfers will not be under this rule.


Because of pace of play issues no one will be allowed to hit provisionals from the tee. We are all members of the same club and prefer to remain civil.

[John Kavanaugh]

He would be putting for bogey.  Never mind.

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's say this new rule helps the high handicapper one hole out of twenty. That is 5%. A very fair estimation. Doesn't seem like much.


Now lets say you play 50 rounds during the course of the year risking $500 per round. That equals $25,000.


5% of $25,000 equals $1250 for the year. $1250 is the cost for unlimited cart usage provided by the club. So here is my dilemma. Do I pay for a free cart for the year for an 18 handicap in our group or do I find someone who can play straight up to join us instead. It's not a difficult decision.


In the long run who really gets hurt? I'd say the guy who can no longer find a game and is only playing exactly by the rules.
 

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps an explanation of "Good Course Management", thru the eyes of an 18-20 capper is in order, because i suspect it differs a a fair bit from a good player. Here are a few examples:


1)  First and foremost, my rule of thumb... play for the easy bogey/hard par and put double or worse into a far lower % category...unless its a wide open course with little trouble, then fire away at will.

2) You get on a medium length par 4, but maybe its tight with some trees or water.  The average high capper just automatically reaches for the driver and bangs away, whereas i'll reach for the 3w and give up some distance in hopes of finding the fairway.

3)  You hit a bad tee shot that goes into the rough with 190 in and a poor lie.  The average joe gets the 5w and gives it a go, but that's low %, so i'll take out the 9 iron and get it back in play instead.

4)  You play a dogleg, where you can get 20-25 extra yards by challenging the deep bunker on the corner where you have to hit one of your best drives to clear it. Do you take it on or aim away from it?

5) You're on a hole with OB down the entire right side, perhaps even with a 20 yard buffer between the fairway and fence. Do you aim down the middle or go up the left hand side to hedge your bets knowing that its rare you'll hit one that far off line to bring it into play?

6)  You stripe one down the middle and only got 140 in, but the pin is tucked just over a bunker on the front.  Do you play right at it, or to the middle of the green with 1 extra club?

7)  You short side an approach where it'll take an amazing chip to leave it close.  Do you go for the low % chip to hit it close at the risk of leaving another short side chip, or go 15 feet past and hope to make the come backer.

   You play a short par 5 and you've got 210 to the middle with thick trees up one side of the hole.  Do you go for the 1 in 10 shot with a good result, or layup for a relatively easy par.

9)  You have a 100 yard approach, to a somewhat tucked pin on the side of the green with sand short and rough long. You know you're much better out of rough than sand, so which side do you error on?

10)  You miss a fairway and there's a smallish gap between trees to have a line to the green, but its wide open if you chip out 45 degrees to the left of there.

11)  You hit a good drive on a par 5, with only 220 in, but there's a centerline bunker right in the way for going in the green.  Do you layup or risk the 60 yard bunker shot and fire away?

12)  You're playing a shortish par 3 into a stiff 2 club wind with a nasty hazard in front.  Do you take the 2 extra or go three extra and make a short miss low %?


ON and on these scenarios go with HH'ers and almost always they go for the "pro/good player" shot....completely ignoring the percentages and bringing double or worse into the equation time and time again.  This isn't to say I don't have some abysmal holes where everything goes wrong. But when you look at holes thru the eyes of a high capper, nearly every hole is a fairly easy bogey... if you're willing to play it that way and concede it will be a hard par.


P.S.  I've played more rounds than I can count with my Spokane buddy.  Hes 30-40 yards longer than me from the tee, hits his irons longer and higher, chips way better that me, better bunker player, but putting wise I have the edge.  I beat him most of the time though because he always goes for the "good player" shot and recovery, instead of understanding the basics of percentages as a High Capper....

[John Kavanaugh]

I wonder what a Golf Digest rater would think if he showed up to a course and saw posted in the locker room. "Out of respect to our founding members and outstanding architecture we here at club XXX have not instituted the new OB and lost ball drop it where you iike it local rules. Here at club XXX angles matter. BSOBD."

[MClutterbuck]

I believe John is right to note that at certain very penal courses, certain players that have a propensity for high scores on a single hole, caused by missing a certain shot twice OB or into an area where it is likely lost, will probably gain some advantage. But such advantage will really only be in medal play.


I dont see it affects match play that much, and the rule might actually reduce this players handicap somewhat, as it might result in a slighly lower score than otherwise, and therefore eventually compensating some of that additional advantage.


I believe the new rules, plus new world handicap system will benefit me initially, but I am like to eventually lower my handicap (our current handicap system has no cap per hole).


John is right that some 10-12 handicapers can score 12-15 pars in a round, and have a couple of quads and a triple bogey resulting from multiple OBs or lost balls. I can see them putting the new rule in effect on certain holes. But I would argue John is in trouble against these kind of players in match play anyway.

[Tom_Doak]

I know we are eliminating "Through the green" from the definitions, but doesn't the new Local Rule now necessitate a specific definition for "Fairway?"

Whaaaaaaaaat?


That was one of the fundamentals to me, that you were no more entitled to "fairness" in the fairway than anywhere else.

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