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Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #200 on: April 18, 2020, 02:48:16 PM »
Taking a mulligan.  It's very strange because I can see the last set of images that I posted here.  The old ones were all tinypic and got nuked when they went from free to charging.

I'll post smaller images here for those viewing with a phone and to eliminate scrolling issues

15th- Strategy


Looking down the 17th- Long.


Some angled aerial views from different angles: Low sun angle so that the contours show up better with shadowing

In this one, you can see the 7th and 8th with the 18th green in between them


5th hole on the right side playing away from you- Knoll to the left of that


Eden in the foreground. Half baked 11th can be seen over the bridge and to the right.  That is the last hole that I need to complete.  That green is flat in this pic, but it looks like it might be one of the coolest greens on the course. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 02:50:35 PM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #201 on: April 18, 2020, 03:00:36 PM »
Will this course be playable on the Golf Club 2019 when its finished?  If so, can't wait.  Great work.

Yes- playable on PS4, Xbox, gaming PC, and any simulator that can run TheGolfClub 2019 (through Protee).  I have played it many times on my PC already to test the holes, but I'm holding off playing on my simulator until it is 100% finished.  When I do that, I can record it and share.  It's a very strange phenomenon to get to know a lost course through virtual play.  This one is especially easy to get a feel for because of the templates and because of how the holes interlock with each other.  Also, you can always see other holes in the distance without any trees. 

And the way that the routing works, you do a big counter clockwise circle around the outside of the course on the first loop, so you're just going around a race track.  The 2nd nine also does that for a while, but one notch inland until you finally switch back on the 14th.  This parallel action is neat how the front nine holes interact with their counterparts on the back nine. 

MCirba

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #202 on: April 18, 2020, 03:05:44 PM »
Peter,
 
This is astounding work.  Thanks for your time and for sharing with us.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Nick Ackland

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #203 on: April 18, 2020, 09:42:01 PM »
This is incredible, what a massive achievement!


I cannot wait to play a round on TGC2019!

Alex Miller

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #204 on: April 18, 2020, 10:40:41 PM »
What is the name of the course? Excited as well - this thread is paying off more than I ever thought it would thanks to lack of actual golf in our lives.

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #205 on: April 19, 2020, 12:04:34 AM »
What is the name of the course? Excited as well - this thread is paying off more than I ever thought it would thanks to lack of actual golf in our lives.

I haven't published it yet.  Will complete the 11th and then will publish a test version so that anyone here can do a play through and give feedback.  I have never really been in a hurry to finish it because it is so fun working on it and there is always more refinement than can be done. 

One other thing that I find really interesting is how wild the course looked in the early days and how it became less so over time.  It didn't actually look anything like what I think of as a CBM/ Raynor due to the fuzziness.  By 1940, it looked more like what we're used to their courses looking like.  You obviously see the same thing with Augusta, Pebble, Pine Valley, and most other courses too.  But this was really a beast when it was constructed.  It was long and brutally difficult.  It was hard to find your ball in the sand, the long grass was punishing, and the sand was soft so that the ball would sit down in it.  In the version that I've built, I've tried to tie it to the shape that it was in by the 1920s.  That was the earliest point in time in which the good aerials started to be taken. 

Here are a few images that I de-oldified to give a feel for it. 

This was in a tournament on the 8th hole and he supposedly played this shot off of a piece of a shipwreck (had to have been staged though- looks like a pose and he is hitting parallel with the water)


On a windy day, even the best players were likely to have to execute the recovery blast from time to time.  From what I've read, you were lucky to even get back to the fairway on these and there was really no hope of going for the green. 




Not that it matters, but my best guess is that this is on the 6th hole, judging by the telephone poles that ran along the road.  And it was a par 5, so this guy probably sliced his driver.


In case you can't read the caption:  It's Gene Sarazen in the Metropolitan Open teeing off on the 11th.



Here is a passage from an American Golfer article in 1920 regarding the waste areas there:
"In addition to the water hazards, there is the loose sand of the fairway and the countless bents.  These latter push their roots deep into the sand and are as tenacious as a bulldog in their holding power.  when your ball nestles among them, it requires all your skill and a very tight grip of your niblick to enable you to get clear of them.  They are however, a splendid form of hazard.  These bents or rushes grow a few inches apart, and when your ball stops in the light colored sand, in which they flourish, it is a matter of considerable difficulty to locate the ball.  An eagle eyed caddie will prove an asset of great value to you.  it would be a strange innovation to paint the golf balls a bright orange color, but they would show up splendidly in the whitish sand." 


And here is the counterpoint from a British perspective (J.S. Worthington).  After he lauds it, he adds this:
"Really I have only one criticism and I will get it over at once-- I do think that the rough is in a good many places too thick.  Not only is it tiresome to have to hunt for a ball but it is a little monotonous to play always niblick shots when you fin it.  In England, where we are, I suppose, a softer run of golfers, we have generally a kind of purgatory for the moderately sinful player while the genuinely infernal regions are reserved for the outrageous hook or slice.  Out of the purgatory a player who has skill and some fortune may be able to play a forcing mashie or iron shot and so lose something indeed but not a whole stroke.  In Lido rough, an error of but a few feet, nay inches generally mean digging the ball out with a niblick and then my best can do no more.  This is, I think, too severe for pleasure and perhaps for justice as well."



« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 12:21:59 AM by Peter Flory »

Mike Bodo

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #206 on: April 19, 2020, 09:30:43 AM »


Peter, thanks for all the work you've put into to recreating Lido for the TGC 2019 game. I've been following this thread since the beginning and have loved it! I am disappointed we no longer have images of the work done on holes 1 - 14 to provide a comprehensive view of the course. I would, however, ask that if you could repost those images and combine them with holes 15 - 18 and the overhead views in a single post in this thread so that the course can be viewed in its entirety, that would greatly appreciated - especially for us non-gamers who likely will never play this on any of the aforementioned gaming platforms.


On a separate note, I found this excerpt from the 1920's American Golfer article of particular interest given the debate we are having in a separate discussion group topic regarding the presence of rough, rough length and uniformity.

"Really I have only one criticism and I will get it over at once-- I do think that the rough is in a good many places too thick.  Not only is it tiresome to have to hunt for a ball but it is a little monotonous to play always niblick shots when you find it. In England, where we are, I suppose, a softer run of golfers, we have generally a kind of purgatory for the moderately sinful player while the genuinely infernal regions are reserved for the outrageous hook or slice.  Out of the purgatory a player who has skill and some fortune may be able to play a forcing mashie or iron shot and so lose something indeed but not a whole stroke.  In Lido rough, an error of but a few feet, nay inches generally mean digging the ball out with a niblick and then my best can do no more.  This is, I think, too severe for pleasure and perhaps for justice as well."
Granted, they were operating with a completely different set of tools in 1920 vs. the clubs of today, however the design principals referenced are just as applicable today as they were then.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Tal Oz

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #207 on: April 19, 2020, 02:46:55 PM »
@Mike, that quote perked up for me as well.


@Peter, I was thinking of bumping this thread since just two weeks ago I installed a copy of TGC2019 and have been exploring numerous courses that have been published. Quite a few are incredibly accurate thanks in part to Lidar data: Chicago, Deal, LACC, Cypress, St Georges (NY). I'm eagerly awaiting a finished Lido. A question for you as obviously the elevation data everywhere and particularly the greens doesn't exist anymore, how did you build all of that out? Was it by aerials, old photos, and articles? Apologies if this has been fully covered in the thread before, I didn't find it.

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #208 on: April 19, 2020, 08:13:31 PM »
@Mike, that quote perked up for me as well.

@Peter, I was thinking of bumping this thread since just two weeks ago I installed a copy of TGC2019 and have been exploring numerous courses that have been published. Quite a few are incredibly accurate thanks in part to Lidar data: Chicago, Deal, LACC, Cypress, St Georges (NY). I'm eagerly awaiting a finished Lido. A question for you as obviously the elevation data everywhere and particularly the greens doesn't exist anymore, how did you build all of that out? Was it by aerials, old photos, and articles? Apologies if this has been fully covered in the thread before, I didn't find it.

That is what has made it take so long to do.  If I could have used lidar, this would have taken me a couple of weeks.

With the contours and elevations on this, the easiest way to explain it is that I'm triangulating all available information.  It's amazing how much can be figured out by keeping a good database of information and constantly crosschecking.  But there are still blind spots, especially when it comes down to subtle contours on greens. 

On the 3rd green for example, it's extremely useful to have this.  I probably would have pitched it more back to front if this photo didn't exist (the back of the green is to the right in the pic).  Imagine seeing this and then having to make a replica out of clay.  That is basically what I'm doing.  It'll be close, but never perfect. 


On the 8th, I think that I would have built this green very close even without this pic based on more macro info (check out how much the salt water spray was killing that green):


For the 10th, there is this one.  That's a puddle in the bunker by the way.  The green contours aren't easy to make out, but you get the idea of it.  However, the key is that it tells me the height of the circus ring and the bunker depths.  Once I know that, I can compare relative lengths of shadows in other aerials and so on.  This is partly how I got the right basic height for the LIDO sign. 


On the 12th, you get this fantastic image that shows how dramatic the punchbowl was:


I'm doing the course without this hole, the 3rd version of the 8th.  However, if I did have to build this hole and didn't have this photo, there is no way in hell that I would have made it right.  It would be hard enough even having that pic.  In the future I'll put out a version with this as the 8th and will try to construct the boardwalk.  This is actually the first image that I ever saw of Lido and it is part of what attracted me to it.  What a great bye hole this would be to settle bets- sort of like the bye hole at Erin Hills, now the 9th. 


In areas where I have a total absence of photographic info, I have to rely on zoomed in details of aerials, what the plastacine models were saying, what the Vanity Fair topo sketch looked like, and written accounts.  The green of the 11th is the perfect example of a blindspot of this nature. 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 08:17:33 PM by Peter Flory »

Tal Oz

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #209 on: April 20, 2020, 12:30:20 AM »
Incredible work Peter and I can't wait to 'play a round' on it once it's complete. What a truly daunting course this would have been to play back in the day.

Bill Seitz

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #210 on: April 20, 2020, 12:50:40 PM »
@Mike, that quote perked up for me as well.


@Peter, I was thinking of bumping this thread since just two weeks ago I installed a copy of TGC2019 and have been exploring numerous courses that have been published. Quite a few are incredibly accurate thanks in part to Lidar data: Chicago, Deal, LACC, Cypress, St Georges (NY). I'm eagerly awaiting a finished Lido. A question for you as obviously the elevation data everywhere and particularly the greens doesn't exist anymore, how did you build all of that out? Was it by aerials, old photos, and articles? Apologies if this has been fully covered in the thread before, I didn't find it.


There is a very accurate rendition of Kingsley available for play.  Having played the real thing about a hundred times, the most recent update is very faithful.  It's so good that when I play a shot on a given hole, I set up to play it how I would in real life based on the green contours that I know from actual real life plays, like certain shots into the first green for example.  It's also nice to never lose a ball left of #2.  I don't think it's Lidar, though.  Can't recall.

SB

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #211 on: April 20, 2020, 05:57:37 PM »
Please get it up on TGC!!! ;D

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #212 on: April 27, 2020, 02:40:29 AM »
Hi Peter
Great job. I'm especially interested in the 18th given it was built as a version of Dr MacKenzie's Country Life prizewinning hole. Do you have any views of the 18th that you can generate as I'd love to share them on my Dr Mackenzie Facebook page (with appropriate credit) and as an accompaniment to my entry on the Lido hole in my Courses of Dr MacKenzie book that I'm working on. If you want to email me you can at neil@golfstrategies.com.au
cheers Neil

V_Halyard

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #213 on: April 27, 2020, 01:23:16 PM »
Fantastic. Looking forward to your TGC 2019.  Please flag when you load it up!
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #214 on: May 01, 2020, 04:41:59 PM »
I am going to repeat myself.  This is the coolest thing I have ever seen. 

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #215 on: June 05, 2020, 01:53:49 AM »
I have a long shot theory/ hopeful hunch and want to see if anyone can help me out with it. 

Background:
- We know that Charles Mayo extensively photographed the course before it was scraped.
- According to G Bahto previously in the 'did Lido jump the shark' thread, "I've also spoken at length with a person whose father actually owned Lido at two different times- once during its major demise and then again when he purchased from the Government after the war.  This persons father actually was the one who hired RTJ to build the present Lido course."
- RTJ incorporated some attributes of the original course into his version of it, although very poorly. 

So... is it possible that the Mayo photos of Lido were passed on to RTJ as reference materials?  I believe that RTJ would have only been 17 or so when the original course closed and he was around 30 when he got the commission for his version.  So it seems likely that he wouldn't have had a great memory of the original and would have needed some background information. 

I see that the Robert Trent Jones papers (1924-2003) are kept in the Cornell University library. 

Collection #6855

Here are all of the specific places in the collection that appear relevant-

Box/ Folders/ Topic
150/ 15-17/ Lido Beach
108/ 6/ Lido Golf Course
30/ 84/ Lido Golf Club, NY
175/ 48/ Lido
Tube 333/ Lido Beach Long Island- Lido Golf Club
Tube 511/ Long Beach, New York- Lido Golf Course

Has anyone here ever accessed the RTJ papers? 
If not, do we have anyone near Cornell who could make an appointment and inspect this information?  Assuming they open back up at some point from the Covid closure. 

Best case would be that we hit the jackpot.  But if not, there might still be some interesting information there that would give us a glimpse of what RTJ's mandate was and what his thought process was in the 2nd Lido course's design.  There also could be other information on the original Lido that isn't in circulation. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 01:59:20 AM by Peter Flory »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #216 on: June 06, 2020, 12:14:51 AM »
Those ages for RTJ don't seem quite right.  Are you thinking about RTJ Jr.?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matthew Rose

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #217 on: June 06, 2020, 12:24:44 AM »
I'll test it too Peter.

There's so much on TGC that looks amazing but isn't very good golf design. I think this could be one of the top five in the game.

I find the designer somewhat clumsy and unwieldy, at least compared to Perfect Golf, and I also find it very hard to produce something unique with the very limited amount of textures and backdrops available. So I'm already impressed as hell without seeing it in game because you've managed to pull both of those things off pretty well based on these pictures.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #218 on: June 06, 2020, 12:39:58 AM »
Those ages for RTJ don't seem quite right.  Are you thinking about RTJ Jr.?

I wasn't, but you're right about the ages.  The Cornell library just labeled his papers those dates and I was thinking that was his lifespan.  But that span must just refer to the earliest dated to the latest dated papers.  His life was 1906 to 2000, so he very well could have had extensive knowledge of the original Lido. 

Since he was a great player and in the area, he probably even played it multiple times.  I wonder if he ever played in the Metropolitan Am. 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 12:53:26 AM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #219 on: June 15, 2020, 12:49:49 AM »
I'm working to try to finish the final hole of the rendering, which is the 11th.  After that, I will go back over the entire course to double check all of the contours again, especially the greens.  Getting close!

For the 11th green, it is unlike anything that I've ever seen.  First of all, it is massive.  The front half of it looks like it is flat, but slightly sunken in like a 'punch tray' and there is round knob right in the middle of it that would feed shots left or right.  That would make for a very interesting green in itself.  But then there is a spine that separates the front half from the back half, like an inverse biarritz.  The back is probably banked to hold shots, but there is no back bowl and it falls rather steeply off if you roll it through (I can clearly see the drop off in other aerials). 

I want to try to get it right, but one problem is that in the 1926 aerial, the green isn't this big.  It appears as though they either deviated from the plans when they built it or they may have narrowed it later to protect the 2nd green and the 12th tee box from approach shots.  Also, the features in the aerial are very faint, so it isn't clear whether it ended up being this bold.  If they didn't build this, they should have. 


Also, take a hard look at the #2 green in the above.  It is the double plateau hole, but unlike any other one that I've seen.  The left plateau has a bowl happening, and the right one is very small and looks insanely difficult to hit with an approach.  Between them there is sort of a connecting ramp and then it appears as though there is a back middle pocket and even a blind lower level in the back right.  If anyone has a better interpretation of this or can think of another double plateau like this, let me know.  It is unclear how far forward the green was intended to be mowed. 

I'm also really trying to get the 9th green to match what I see that is still in the ground under the weeds (reposting this image).  Hopefully this green has been untouched and this isn't a dampened version of the original.  In the image below, it is the aerial of the course overlaid with the google contours.  1st tee is the green rectangle.  You can see how approaching this green from the left (hitting over that bunker) would be to a green that slope away from you.  It's the Leven hole, but I have never found any evidence of a mound, but there were references to how difficult the green was to hold from a bad angle. 

Craig Disher

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #220 on: June 15, 2020, 11:47:55 AM »
I have a long shot theory/ hopeful hunch and want to see if anyone can help me out with it. 

Background:
- We know that Charles Mayo extensively photographed the course before it was scraped.


I see that the Robert Trent Jones papers (1924-2003) are kept in the Cornell University library. 

Collection #6855

Here are all of the specific places in the collection that appear relevant-

Box/ Folders/ Topic
150/ 15-17/ Lido Beach
108/ 6/ Lido Golf Course
30/ 84/ Lido Golf Club, NY
175/ 48/ Lido
Tube 333/ Lido Beach Long Island- Lido Golf Club
Tube 511/ Long Beach, New York- Lido Golf Course

Has anyone here ever accessed the RTJ papers? 
If not, do we have anyone near Cornell who could make an appointment and inspect this information?  Assuming they open back up at some point from the Covid closure. 

Peter,I think the most likely folder containing Mayo's photos of the Lido is Box 175, folder 48. The others - although it'd be worthwhile to check - most likely contain only information on his work at the new course. Box 175 contains miscellaneous information on golf courses that apparently he collected over the years but weren't his projects. I looked at the indexes of the RTJ material a while ago and was hoping to find a reference to Mayo.

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #221 on: June 16, 2020, 08:55:55 AM »
I'm working to try to finish the final hole of the rendering, which is the 11th.  After that, I will go back over the entire course to double check all of the contours again, especially the greens.  Getting close!

For the 11th green, it is unlike anything that I've ever seen.  First of all, it is massive.  The front half of it looks like it is flat, but slightly sunken in like a 'punch tray' and there is round knob right in the middle of it that would feed shots left or right.  That would make for a very interesting green in itself.  But then there is a spine that separates the front half from the back half, like an inverse biarritz.  The back is probably banked to hold shots, but there is no back bowl and it falls rather steeply off if you roll it through (I can clearly see the drop off in other aerials). 

I want to try to get it right, but one problem is that in the 1926 aerial, the green isn't this big.  It appears as though they either deviated from the plans when they built it or they may have narrowed it later to protect the 2nd green and the 12th tee box from approach shots.  Also, the features in the aerial are very faint, so it isn't clear whether it ended up being this bold.  If they didn't build this, they should have. 


Also, take a hard look at the #2 green in the above.  It is the double plateau hole, but unlike any other one that I've seen.  The left plateau has a bowl happening, and the right one is very small and looks insanely difficult to hit with an approach.  Between them there is sort of a connecting ramp and then it appears as though there is a back middle pocket and even a blind lower level in the back right.  If anyone has a better interpretation of this or can think of another double plateau like this, let me know.  It is unclear how far forward the green was intended to be mowed. 

I'm also really trying to get the 9th green to match what I see that is still in the ground under the weeds (reposting this image).  Hopefully this green has been untouched and this isn't a dampened version of the original.  In the image below, it is the aerial of the course overlaid with the google contours.  1st tee is the green rectangle.  You can see how approaching this green from the left (hitting over that bunker) would be to a green that slope away from you.  It's the Leven hole, but I have never found any evidence of a mound, but there were references to how difficult the green was to hold from a bad angle. 



Peter,


I see the same thing as you on the 2nd green.  The plateaux seem to be on the entire left side of the green and in the front right quadrant.  The left side of the green looks very much like 17 at Yale or similar to the 11th at NGLA.  The right side is reversed from those two examples where the second plateau is in the front right quadrant and the back is the low area of the green. The picture you have of Fishers Island shows a good example of what that front plateau may have looked like.  I see a combination of the left side of Yales 17th green with the front ride side plateau similar to Fishers Island.


11 is hard to determine from the aerials what was going on there.  In the plasticine model I almost interpret the back half as a Maiden, if the location of the "11" is in a low spot.  The front almost looks like an inverted Maiden where the right and left front quadrant may be hollows with a raised hump in the middle.  I'm not sure that's what they had in mind, but it would be interesting.  I view the back as raised compared to the front like a second tier at least in the plasticine model.  This is total speculation on 11 and may be totally off base.  The way you describe the 11th reminds me of the 6th at Hotchkiss which has very pronounced spines running through the green creating almost a wishbone shape.  The wishbone spine breaks the green into three distinct sections and the pin location determines which side of the fairway you want to approach from.


The Vanity Fair diagram shows a proposed mound on 9 very close to the 1st and 10th tees. It almost appears to protect the tees on this layout.  It's hard to tell if this was built to the specs, but it was certainly planned for.  If you look on Historicaerials.com you can still see the 9th green being maintained in 1966.  It appears to be the last green standing.  I have found references to Lido Springs Par 3 course on Lido Boulevard in the 1970's.  Has anyone ever heard of Lido Springs Par 3 course?  Was it on the site of the original Lido?


Bret

Craig Disher

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #222 on: June 16, 2020, 12:21:08 PM »
This photo of the 9th taken in 1964 shows a mound on the right front of the green. It's surprising that the ground contours would have remained for all those years. I think it's possible that the par-3 course could have been on this ground.


Peter - the 3D image from the 40s shows that the bunker face to the rear of the green was lower than the bunker next to it. Certainly the green had a tilt from front left to back right.

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #223 on: June 16, 2020, 03:39:26 PM »
This photo of the 9th taken in 1964 shows a mound on the right front of the green. It's surprising that the ground contours would have remained for all those years. I think it's possible that the par-3 course could have been on this ground.


Peter - the 3D image from the 40s shows that the bunker face to the rear of the green was lower than the bunker next to it. Certainly the green had a tilt from front left to back right.

Thanks for that pic.

Based on that google earth screen grab that I posted, the green is still there and matches what you're describing in terms of the tilt and that front of the green elevated from the fairway. 

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #224 on: June 16, 2020, 03:43:30 PM »
I see the same thing as you on the 2nd green.  The plateaux seem to be on the entire left side of the green and in the front right quadrant.  The left side of the green looks very much like 17 at Yale or similar to the 11th at NGLA.  The right side is reversed from those two examples where the second plateau is in the front right quadrant and the back is the low area of the green. The picture you have of Fishers Island shows a good example of what that front plateau may have looked like.  I see a combination of the left side of Yales 17th green with the front ride side plateau similar to Fishers Island.

11 is hard to determine from the aerials what was going on there.  In the plasticine model I almost interpret the back half as a Maiden, if the location of the "11" is in a low spot.  The front almost looks like an inverted Maiden where the right and left front quadrant may be hollows with a raised hump in the middle.  I'm not sure that's what they had in mind, but it would be interesting.  I view the back as raised compared to the front like a second tier at least in the plasticine model.  This is total speculation on 11 and may be totally off base.  The way you describe the 11th reminds me of the 6th at Hotchkiss which has very pronounced spines running through the green creating almost a wishbone shape.  The wishbone spine breaks the green into three distinct sections and the pin location determines which side of the fairway you want to approach from.


I find it fascinating that with a blank canvass, he came up with such abstraction on the 2nd green.  It is really quirky.  It is definitely the hardest one on the course to recreate.  I have a version done, but not totally happy with it and I'll revisit it after I finish 11.

Thanks for the other examples.  I will look at them to try to get a better feel for what he may have been going for. 

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