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Jeff Schley

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2018, 11:25:33 PM »
Jeff - In addition to Jim's description of the Lido is the connection of CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor and Dr Alister Mackenzie. My understanding is that Mackenzie had been designing courses in the UK including Alwoodley, Darlington and Moortown and had worked some with HS Colt. In 1914 Mackenzie won a "design a hole contest" in Country Life magazine (Bernard Darwin). The contest was using the land where the 18th hole at the Lido was to be built and the prize was to have the hole considered for creation of what was going to be one of the best courses in the world at that time. I believe that while the design was changed a bit the hole was indeed created as the 18th at The Lido. This is a significant historical link between these four great classic period architects. Mackenzie went on to partner with Colt and Alison for a few years before going out on his own and doing much more work in the USA. The rest of course is history.

Wonderful history Jack, thank you so much.  Also seems like many things during the War, this course couldn't be saved as it was used for the military.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Phil Carlucci

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2018, 06:57:56 AM »
Wonderful history Jack, thank you so much.  Also seems like many things during the War, this course couldn't be saved as it was used for the military.

According to newspaper accounts into the early/mid 1950s, after the war, the property was turned over to the State Housing Authority and the barracks were used as housing for veterans and their families.  The Lido owners were able to buy back part of the course site, but there were lawsuits involved with the vet housing portion.  In addition, a chunk of it was given to the Long Beach School District by the government.  Any interest in reacquiring the site to rebuild the golf course was now tied up in governmental red tape.  By the mid 50s the vet housing was condemned and destroyed, though by then the Lido owners had already moved on with the new course next door.
Golf On Long Island: www.GolfOnLongIsland.com
Author, Images of America: Long Island Golf

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2018, 11:14:13 AM »
Peter,


Here is a photograph of the 15th greenside bunker in 1931.  It almost looks like there is a "LIDO" sign in the background of the photo.  Reminds me a little of the "HOLLYWOOD" sign, but on a much smaller scale. 


New York Times-May 10, 1931





Bret, thanks for that pic.  Every image like this will help me to make it more accurate.  This one gives me perspective on the depth of the trap and the way that the grass face looked.  I hadn't ever noticed the LIDO sign in any other pics or aerials.  I think that I can replicate that with floating objects. 

JBovay

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2018, 06:43:53 AM »
I've been using the Perfect Parallel software to create courses for the Jack Nicklaus Perfect Golf game - this is the same software used to design the winning contest hole at Sand Valley, as well as for some flyover graphics used on some TV broadcasts.


Anyone interested in playing virtual golf on real courses should look into getting Links 2003 on their computer.  The graphics are a bit outdated but the game runs smooth and the website LinksCorner is loaded with real courses with free downloads.  I have played Shinnecock, Merion, PB, PV, Prairie Dunes, Oakmont, Bayonne, Banff, Troon, TOC, Dornoch, ETC.


I'm fascinated to learn that you guys design these courses and play these games as hobbies. When I was very young, I spent a lot of time playing Links 386. I stopped playing computer golf after convincing my parents to drop me off at the course every day. I did buy a newer edition of Links around 2001 because I wanted to play around with designing courses, but couldn't figure out how to build bunkers and gave it up.


Moving away from the original topic of the thread: I've been wondering why NBC and CBS don't spend a little bit more on GCA-related graphics to accentuate the broadcast, since these software tools have been around for 20+ years and they're in wide use by the companies that broadcast events from other parts of the world. Granted, NBC and CBS are getting a little bit better at including them... but did anyone catch the laughable hole diagrams they used on Sunday in Mexico City?

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2018, 04:13:35 AM »
Have made a little more progress.  The setup phase is pretty slow and it doesn't get fun until I advance to the shaping and planting. 


Here is the basic 2-D layout that is almost done.  Just need to tweak a few trap shapes and add the original 8th hole:



This at least lets me explore the course from ground level.  Here is the view from the 4th tee box (famous lagoon hole) looking down the view of the safe fairway.  The shortcut is off to the right over more of the water:



View crossing the first bridge (note that I haven't shaped the banks of the lagoon yet, so they are blocky looking):



Couldn't resist taking a very preliminary play through, even though it is dead flat:






Also, I did a quick example green, where I threw in some mounding and sea grass to get a rough example of how the course will look later on:



It's starting to feel like a real place.  I thought that it would feel cramped since it's only on 120 acres, but each hole feels very roomy so far when you're on the ground. 


JC Jones

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2018, 09:34:18 AM »

It's starting to feel like a real place.  I thought that it would feel cramped since it's only on 120 acres, but each hole feels very roomy so far when you're on the ground.


smh
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2018, 11:42:51 AM »
One fortunate thing is that the best overhead aerial, the best angled aerial, and the plastacine model all have different sun directions and so that shadows are cast in different directions.  That makes it somewhat possible to decipher the undulations. 


The angled aerials are proving to be incredibly valuable. 

Here is an example.  This is a zoomed in look at the first hole.  The tee box is at the bottom of the screen where I put 2 blue dots (originally, there was no building to the right of it).  The green is at the top where I put one blue dot.  The sun angle is from the top of the photo to the bottom.  You can see the incredible undulations just across the road.  Then, you can see a ridge/ step that crosses the fairway at the first FW bunker on the right side.  Then there is another step up to get over the 2 angled cross bunkers that are short of the green.  To the left, there is a spine in the fairway that falls off to the left and it looks like it would have left a player with a more difficult angle and a fully blind shot.  Hard to believe that he built this from scratch, but you can tell he was thinking about giving it the Old Course dynamic.  Lots of room to bail out left, but you'll have to pay a price for that on the approach. 

What looked like a gentle handshake hole from the top view aerial suddenly looks like a pretty intimidating opener from this angle... especially with hickories.  Add on top of that there is OB right and it was usually windy. 




One of the first decisions that I need to make is on the green.  The plastacine model shows a giant 18,000sf green with some really pronounced undulations on the front half (looks like 4 parallel pockets separated by vertical ridges).  By the time the aerials were taken, it appears that the front half of the green had turned to fairway and the green was reduced to about 8,000sf.  A bunker was also added.  Even though there is less information, I'm going to try to go with the original version of the course whenever possible.  CBM wrote that the first hole could be made easier or more difficult depending on the pin placement, so I think that I see what he meant. 

Matthew Rose

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2018, 06:38:11 PM »
I haven't seen the graphics from last week's event, but I'm pretty sure the graphics being used at Innisbrook today is the same software I'm using.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2018, 01:39:20 AM »
Just spent some time tonight working on the sculpting on the first hole and trying to incorporate all of the ripples from the pics and the plastacine model.  I used the original bunkering and the original green size and shape. 

It won't have the Lido feel until I make all the wild areas sandy and add the sea grass, but thought I'd share what one night's worth of progress looks like. 

Elevated view showing the undulations up the fairway.  You want to cheat that right bunker to get a nice view on the approach. Both of the right hand fairway bunkers were removed by the time the aerials were taken.  The entire course got softened up in numerous ways, so my guess is that the bunkers shown here captured many shots.  Most golfers sliced, even back then. 



View of an approach after a safe drive.  In almost all accounts of the course, the undulations in the fairways are mentioned.  I'm trying to scale them appropriately to give it the boldness that was often mentioned in accounts of it. 



The green is still a major work in progress, so no pics.  I'll slow down on the posting when I really get to work on the course, but I'm excited to flesh out the first hole.

Jeff Schley

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2018, 05:10:12 AM »
Really cool Peter.  Out of curiosity how many hours did it take you to shape the first hole, without the green?  You must be an expert at the software, but what is the name of the software?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2018, 04:48:46 PM »
Really cool Peter.  Out of curiosity how many hours did it take you to shape the first hole, without the green?  You must be an expert at the software, but what is the name of the software?


It probably took about 2 hours to do the basic sculpting.  But then a few more to do all the tweaking to get it right (diminishing returns).  I'll PM you some details on the software and some other alternatives. 

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2018, 07:07:28 PM »
That is one of the coolest things I have ever seen.  Bravo!

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2018, 10:25:07 PM »
Here is my first question to tap the collective knowledge and deduction abilities of this forum.

Does anybody have any idea on what hole this photo is showing? 


The caption doesn't make a ton of sense to me.  "Coming home.  at the end of eighteen brisk holes, one looks forward to the cool and invigorating plunge in the breakers of the blue Atlantic". 

In the photo, there is a group that appears to be a light gallery that may have been following a match and are now off to somewhere (guessing the resort).  The hole isn't the 18th, unless I'm completely disoriented.  You can't see the towers.  It looks like there is one more hole in the distance with at least one player either on a tee or hitting an approach.  Maybe the match finished early and they are bee lining back to the beach?  Or maybe the match went to extra holes and concluded and they are making a long walk back? 

It seems fairly easy to eliminate holes from contention.  Based on what I can tell, it definitely isn't: 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 18. 

That leaves 2, 9, and 17 as candidates.  If it is 2, then the player in the distance is on 3 tee (Eden).  If it is 9, then the player in the distance doesn't make much sense (because the #1 and #10 tees were left of the green) and the area to the right of the fairway seems built up way too much- unless it was later removed to put the driveway through.  If it is 17, then I have no idea why the crowd of people would be walking further back onto the course. 

Let me know if you have any theories.  I'm very curious to identify it because it gives such good information on the contouring.  I didn't realize that the mounds off the fairway would be this big and broad as the one in the far right hand side of the photo.  It's such a soft hill, that it wouldn't make a dramatic shadow in the aerials. 

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2018, 10:31:24 AM »
Peter,


I don't know what hole this is, but if I had to guess I would say it's a picture of spectators following the action down the 17th fairway.  The large hill on the right is most likely the Alps hill you needed to hit over on 10.  The man who looks like he may be teeing off would be on the 11th tee. To the right of the gentleman on the tee looks like it could be the mounding for the 10th green.  The large bunker in the fairway next to the gentleman on the tee is most likely the cross bunker running through the 17th fairway.  I feel like you can see water in the distance of the photo surrounded by more land, making me think I'm looking towards the channel hole in the distance.  This is all just a guess on my part.


It's important to note that the 18th hole did not really end at the Club House or the Hotel.  So anyone finishing 18 would have to walk across the 7th hole to get to the hotel or down the ninth hole to get back to the club house, but I don't think this is a picture of either the 7th or the 9th.


Hope this helps


Bret

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2018, 10:42:07 AM »
That is one of the coolest things I have ever seen.  Bravo!


Peter, Iíve been on GCA from almost the beginning and I know Jeff has been as well. This is one of the best threads in years so please continue the great work.

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2018, 12:50:04 PM »
Peter,


I don't know what hole this is, but if I had to guess I would say it's a picture of spectators following the action down the 17th fairway.  The large hill on the right is most likely the Alps hill you needed to hit over on 10.  The man who looks like he may be teeing off would be on the 11th tee. To the right of the gentleman on the tee looks like it could be the mounding for the 10th green.  The large bunker in the fairway next to the gentleman on the tee is most likely the cross bunker running through the 17th fairway.  I feel like you can see water in the distance of the photo surrounded by more land, making me think I'm looking towards the channel hole in the distance.  This is all just a guess on my part.

It's important to note that the 18th hole did not really end at the Club House or the Hotel.  So anyone finishing 18 would have to walk across the 7th hole to get to the hotel or down the ninth hole to get back to the club house, but I don't think this is a picture of either the 7th or the 9th.


Hope this helps


Bret


Bret- I think you've done it!  You thought of something that I wouldn't have.  The green on the left side of the pic is a different hole than the one that they are walking on.  And I am very relieved to know that the big mound is the alps... because now I know how big it was, plus I know that most of the contouring wasn't on that scale.


Here is a screen snap that I took on google earth with the aerial overlayed upon it from the angle that the pic must have been taken from to match your theory.  I did some really crude sketching to show the golfer on the tee in the background (which is #2 tee), plus a couple gallery members walking to the right down 17 fairway, plus an arc to show where the mound would be for the alps.  After analyzing this, I'm almost sure that you are right and you just increased the accuracy of what I'm doing on a very important hole.  One of the the narratives called the Alps hole at Lido a very pale imitation of the original and chalked it up to the costs that it would have required to make the alps bigger, so I would have underestimated the size if this mystery wasn't solved.


The article with the photo was a total fluff piece where they were clearly trying to sell the benefits of the resort, so it shouldn't be surprising that they butchered the caption.  One interesting thing about it was how they were clearly trying to deal with the reputation of the course as being difficult.  That seemed to be something they had to mitigate while drumming up demand. 


« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 12:54:11 PM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2018, 01:54:08 PM »
One other thing about your theory- the caption actually does make a little sense if that is the final stretch of 17.

"Coming home.  At the end of eighteen brisk holes, one looks forward to the cool and invigorating plunge in the breakers of the blue Atlantic". 

I notice that in a lot of the old accounts, they seem way more focused on big picture navigation than we would today.  Maybe it's because of the out and back of St Andrews or the fact that they had to walk everything.  But they seemed to insert a lot of additional information about whether they were going away from the clubhouse or coming back toward it. 

So, at this point of the course, 17 and 18 were on a straight line home.  If you're on 17, you could say that you were "coming home".  Then the next sentence is just trying to sell the benefits of swimming in 50 degree water.  After reading "The Man Who Sold America" I'm wise to their slick sales pitches back then.   

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2018, 03:24:13 AM »
Here is my rough draft of the 8th hole.  I traced out the outlines from the plastacine map.  Plays 235 uphill.  Camera depth of field setting that I used makes it look shorter and wider, but allows you to see more detail.  This is a tough hole to sculpt and I need to refine it more.  Also, need to rough up the long grass on the line to the green where everyone walks- should just be a wide sandy trail through. 





Here is a photo of the hole, but from a much shorter tee.  The original might have been washed away already, or they just weren't playing the tips. 







Jim Nugent

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2018, 08:52:59 AM »
Peter, I'm pretty sure #8 was the Biarritz. 

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2018, 09:47:33 AM »
Very, very cool!
Thank you for sharing
Mike
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Tim Liddy

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2018, 10:34:28 AM »
Agree. Hook up the GPS and let's build it!
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2018, 11:10:42 AM »
Peter:


I'm curious where you've gotten the plasticine models for the course in a decent enough resolution to be of use.  Your first hole looks quite realistic, though I've never seen a photo from that fairway to know if it's accurate.


The one hole I do know regarding contour is the famous 4th.  That island fairway on the right was built up 8 or 10 feet, with steep banks to sandy wastes and deep rough all around it, so it was much more perilous to go for it than most of the "alternate route" holes you see today ... if you missed the island, your next shot [presuming you found the ball] was a wedge back to the island fairway, leaving yourself 200 yards over water to the green.


I'm not sure how much the green was built up, but I'd guess it was similar so you could see the flag from the tee.

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2018, 12:17:46 PM »
Peter, I'm pretty sure #8 was the Biarritz.

You are correct.  It was of the variety where the dip was before the putting surface in this case.  There is a bunker roughly where the chasm was on the original hole. 

The challenge on this one is that it is difficult to figure out exactly how steep the dip was.  There are some pretty good pics of this hole, but it's still hard to see.  I'm going to keep working on it.  I like this as a placeholder, but will get more attention for sure. 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 12:47:01 PM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2018, 12:45:24 PM »
Peter:
I'm curious where you've gotten the plasticine models for the course in a decent enough resolution to be of use.  Your first hole looks quite realistic, though I've never seen a photo from that fairway to know if it's accurate.

The one hole I do know regarding contour is the famous 4th.  That island fairway on the right was built up 8 or 10 feet, with steep banks to sandy wastes and deep rough all around it, so it was much more perilous to go for it than most of the "alternate route" holes you see today ... if you missed the island, your next shot [presuming you found the ball] was a wedge back to the island fairway, leaving yourself 200 yards over water to the green.

I'm not sure how much the green was built up, but I'd guess it was similar so you could see the flag from the tee.

The images that I have of the plastacine models are good enough to see all of the contours.  And based on all of the comparing that I did to various photos and aerials, each contour on those models did correspond to what was built.  When I first saw them, I figured that they would be estimations and not correspond so precisely. 

Sean Tully sent me some great information and part of that was the Vanity Fair article, which had even more high resolution photos of the plastacine models for #4, #5, and #18.  I have no excuse on those holes and should be able to nail them.  That same article also had a great diagram of the entire course with hand drawn topographical lines for major contours like the alps and those greensites. 

You are correct on the greensite on 4 being raised.  It and the green on #12 were both significantly raised and are at the same level at the top of a mount.  Based on written account, I believe that a player could see the flagstick from the tee on #4.  There was also a water tower in the distance that was on the same line I believe. 

The problem with the 4th hole if the course would have survived is that the dynamic would have changed for the worse.  Going down the right hand route now wouldn't even be a driver for a great player because you'd run out of fairway.  It would probably be 3-wood + mid iron.  And there was zero room to move back the tee since there was the Channel and the corner of the property.  But back in the day, it was perfect.  It was a huge gamble going right and a payoff that was proportionate.  Would have made the ultimate match play hole if it fell later in the round.  Imagine if it were the 16th and all players losing their matches were tempted to break their strategy and gamble. 

SBusch

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Re: Lido- Virtual Build
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2018, 02:05:03 PM »
This is just plain awesome.  Amazing that you can get enough data to even guess at the contours.  Applaud all of your hard work.

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