[V. Kmetz]

I'm sure several viewers on the board an hour ago couldn't help but note Peter and Gary get on their annual incredulity soapbox about the 10th green's contours and size being unfair at these speeds. Their opportunity came courtesy of Cantlay and McDowell's 2nd shots from the greenside.


And to be sure, the green speed debate is a notorious one for all of GCA...


But where is the balance regarding the great features of this (any many holes of this ilk), which are:

• to conquer this hardship, a drive seeking the green complex must come to rest in a very precise range of spots
• that spot can/does change with different hole locations
• "laying up" strategies often permit more spin options to conquer the contour/speed issues.
• a well-"struck" green-side shot, is not the same as a well "played" one, with concurrent good results.
• a golf hole (even a one shotter/Par 3) is a sequence of shots, one decent bash shouldn't open eagles and birdies instantly.
• both players (in this case) ended with a 4.
• these are the best players in the world and the green speeds are brought to a level (announced as 12.5 today) that isn't the normal condition.
• as is the case in so much of golf...don't plan to/hit it there if you're not willing to deal.

Another point; they posted the (since 2003) stat that players who went for it are 606-under and those who laid up are 56 over...which to me makes the case that the hoel is as fair as any at standard tour speeds.


Lastly, while McCord is barred from the Masters, Kostis would never say this mis-footed shit at ANGC, which has several unfair combos of short shot contours to green speeds.


cheers  vk

[Frank M]

Wouldn’t the 606 under par for those who go for it and 58 over for those who layup actually suggest it to be unfair due to an incredible imbalance in results for various strategies? It’s just unfair in the opposite way. Plus, it’s a short par-4, you would expect players to put themselves in a lot less horrific positions after their second shots when they are within short chip/putt range. 


Besides that, I actually agree with them. The green has become a bit of a joke IMO. It does not reward in any way even the best of shots, in fact it seems to mostly punish them, especially with today’s pin position. I’m not saying every great shot needs to be rewarded, but every great shot shouldn’t be punished either.

[SL_Solow]

What I found to be most interesting about their "discussion" was that there was no thought of reducing green speeds as a solution to the "problem".  Instead, modifications  to the architecture was assumed notwithstanding the rest of the broadcast containing frequent paeans to the Thomas/Bell design.

[Wade Whitehead]

I was disappointed to see the stats showing how much easier the hole plays when competitors go for the green.

I'll bet, for everyday players, those numbers are reversed.  The hole's got to play much easier for those who have a full shot into the green.

WW

[William_G]

was sure fun to watch

love the stats

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'll bet, for everyday players, those numbers are reversed.  The hole's got to play much easier for those who have a full shot into the green.

That's unlikely. People of all skill levels tend to hit it closer from 30 yards than they do from 100.

[Jim Nugent]

Did the statistics show the average score on #10 since 2003? 

[Jeff Schley]

Did the statistics show the average score on #10 since 2003?

That is the real stat, normalize it to an average.  Maybe the average is 3.85 going for it and 4.1 laying up?  We don't know unless they factor in the number of each and compute it into the average.

[Jon Wiggett]

And if looking at the hole as a half par hole e.g. a par 3.5 then it holds up pretty well.


Jon

[Scott Warren]

I'll bet, for everyday players, those numbers are reversed.  The hole's got to play much easier for those who have a full shot into the green.

That's unlikely. People of all skill levels tend to hit it closer from 30 yards than they do from 100.

There’s plenty of places within 30 yards of the hole on 10 at Riviera that I’d gladly trade for 100 yards out in the left side of the fairway.

[Thomas Dai]

.....they posted the (since 2003) stat that players who went for it are 606-under and those who laid up are 56 over...

Ref the stats - I wonder if the stats are all rounds played, ie 4 rounds by some plus 2 rounds by others? This could effect the over/under as those who play all 4 rounds are playing better than those who arn't playing as good so don't make the cut after playing only the first 2 rounds.


atb

[Wade Whitehead]

I'll bet, for everyday players, those numbers are reversed.  The hole's got to play much easier for those who have a full shot into the green.

That's unlikely. People of all skill levels tend to hit it closer from 30 yards than they do from 100.

At most courses, maybe.  On the tenth at Riviera, I'd bet on the full shot every time.

WW

[William_G]

what makes your 2nd shot so important is the hole location

so when looking at stats about the tee shot, the hole location should be factored in

fun

[John McCarthy]

It seems CBS has more handheld cameras at greenside.  It really helps to show how the greens have a lot of slope which is not apparent from the tower.  Plus showing how deep the bunkers are for the players.    Every year at Augusta they mention the extreme rise and fall of the land but struggle to convey the fact on television.

[William_G]

CBS has done decent job implementing shot tracer for many holes and in particular #10's tee shots

more of this please, thank you

awesome show of Bubba's shot shapes, previously unseen or imagined  by many

well done

[Garland Bayley]

...
Besides that, I actually agree with them. The green has become a bit of a joke IMO. It does not reward in any way even the best of shots, in fact it seems to mostly punish them, especially with today’s pin position. I’m not saying every great shot needs to be rewarded, but every great shot shouldn’t be punished either.

 

I saw a shot today that came in over the bunker landed near the hole bounced on then spun back to near the hole. How is that not rewarding the best of shots?

[Frank M]

I saw a shot today that came in over the bunker landed near the hole bounced on then spun back to near the hole. How is that not rewarding the best of shots?

A shot? Well a single shot makes the hole point mute ☺️ I saw A shot that did the exact opposite.

[Garland Bayley]

I saw a shot today that came in over the bunker landed near the hole bounced on then spun back to near the hole. How is that not rewarding the best of shots?

A shot? Well a single shot makes the hole point mute ☺️ I saw A shot that did the exact opposite.

Given that I saw perhaps 2 shots to the green on 10, that makes it 100% of the good ones rewarded.
Saw a bit of the tournament while in pro shop before playing.

[Tom_Doak]

There have been roughly 450 tournament rounds each year since 2003, which adds up to 6500 rounds ... so the difference in scoring average is more like 3.9 to 4.01.  Every shot counts, but they made the advantage sound much bigger than it has been.

[Mike Schott]

I'll bet, for everyday players, those numbers are reversed.  The hole's got to play much easier for those who have a full shot into the green.

That's unlikely. People of all skill levels tend to hit it closer from 30 yards than they do from 100.

There’s plenty of places within 30 yards of the hole on 10 at Riviera that I’d gladly trade for 100 yards out in the left side of the fairway.

It depends on the player's skill level. The typical amateur, say 15-20 handicap will have a hard time hitting that green from 100 yards. They may miss from 30 but as one who fits this skill level, I'd rather have the 30 yard shot.

[George Pazin]

Interesting thoughts by all, save maybe the TV guys...


Even though I'm a math geek, I wonder if there really is any good way to statistically analyze the 10th at Riviera. Or even some other great short par 4s. Unless there is water present, there generally isn't going to be a huge distribution of scores, mostly pars with some birdies and bogeys.


I wonder if instead it's just the feeling that one is walking away with a bogey, after hoping for a birdie, while not really truly understanding why.

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