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Thomas Dai

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What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« on: January 31, 2018, 03:36:22 PM »
What kind of holes - p3, p4, p5 - do you and amateurs generally drop shots to par at and what does this tell us about architecture?


Moi? Itís usually long p3ís. P3ís usually have the most heavily defended greens so if you miss the green an up-n-down is probably going to be particularly difficult and if you, like olde yee moi, donít hit the ball that far, your probably going to be missing quite a few p3 greens when your using a Driver, fairway metal, strong hybrid or long iron from the tee.


Atb

Kalen Braley

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2018, 03:40:28 PM »
Given most courses are par 4s....(10 vs 4 3s and 4 5s)....its the long par 4s. 


They are a nightmare for short to medium hitters mostly because you usually have to execute two difficult shots well.  A good drive, followed by a long iron.  And then heaven forbid you're playing into the wind or soft conditions with no roll, its just that much tougher...

Brad Tufts

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2018, 03:45:11 PM »
I think for low markers it's the par threes.


One full shot only means less chance for recovery if you miss a little.


On tour averaging near 3.00 on the par threes is always a great achievement.
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Brian Finn

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 03:48:43 PM »
Better players score best on par 5s, worst on par 3s.  Lesser players score worst on par 5s, because it gives them more opportunities to hit bad shots.
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jeffwarne

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2018, 03:58:08 PM »
If you're a 14 handicap, and you make five on a par 4,,,,
are you dropping a shot?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2018, 04:01:04 PM »
On par 3's you always have a level lie while hitting the ball off a tee.  i just played 12 par 3's at Hilton Head 6 under par. i played the other 42 holes 20 over.

Peter Pallotta

Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2018, 04:16:02 PM »
If you're a 14 handicap, and you make five on a par 4,,,,
are you dropping a shot?
Indeed, my scores get high not because I drop a shot, but because I sometimes drop 4 (i.e. the blow-up)!
That never happens on a Par 3 and rarely happens on a Par 5; the blow-ups are usually on par 4s.
Strange, because par 4s are my favorite pars in golf; on my ideal 9 hole course there'd be 7 of them.
Maybe because when I don't blow up I play them pretty well and like playing them the most (individually and, because they offer the most variety of all the pars, collectively too); that, and they being for me the essence of golf.   
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:18:33 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mark_Fine

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 04:29:02 PM »
How many here have actually gone to a golf course (especially a public course where most golfers play) and just sat and watched golfers play?  I have done this often just to help get a better appreciation for golfers and I would encourage you to try it sometime.  With all due respect, how someone plays often has little to do with the architecture. 


We did work out at Griffith Park in Los Angeles on the Wilson and Harding Golf courses.  I remember sitting there for quite a long time watching golfers play and you would be amazed where they hit the golf ball or don't hit the golf ball and just top it off the tee or hit is sideways out of the fairway or rough.  Many are just trying to make solid contact and move it forward.  The par of the hole doesn't really matter. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 05:47:19 PM by Mark_Fine »

Ira Fishman

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 05:10:33 PM »
How many here have actually gone to golf course (especially a public course where most golfers play) and just sat and watched golfers play?  I have done this often just to help get a better appreciation for golfers and I would encourage you to try it sometime.  With all due respect, how someone plays often has little to do with the architecture. 


We did work out at Griffith Park in Los Angeles on the Wilson and Harding Golf courses.  I remember sitting there for quite a long time watching golfers play and you would be amazed where they hit the golf ball or don't hit the golf ball and just top it off the tee or hit is sideways out of the fairway or rough.  Many are just trying to make solid contact and move it forward.  The par of the hole doesn't really matter.


Slightly OT, but this reminds me of playing at a 9 hole municipal course in Chicago--Billy Caldwell--when we first started playing as kids.  By the fifth tee time of the day, there already was a back up. Hence, they had a Public Address system to announce who was on the tee.  One day, by the time we got to the first tee, the crowd had grown to a few dozen people, all crowded around the tee.  One of our friends whiffed not once, not twice, but three times.  And then the disembodied voice came from the PA for all to hear: "Pick up the ball and throw it."


Ira

Matthew Petersen

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 10:52:55 PM »
I'm a pretty decent player, when I'm in practice as low as scratch. It's always been the par 3s. I'm not driving it like the Tour guys, but driving is clearly the strength of my game. I'm generally pretty straight and long enough, maybe 250-270 with a typical drive. So in most rounds the one-shooters tend to be among the longest approaches I have. And a 170 yard par 3 green is probably more severely defended than the green of a 425 yard hole where I might have the same distance in.

Thomas Dai

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 02:57:47 AM »
Kinda sounding that in general p3ís are usually to long for amateurs? Nothing wrong with the occasional long one but to many middling ones and not enough short ones?
Atb

George Pazin

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 07:35:03 AM »
I've always felt the level lie, on a tee no less, on your approach shot, which is basically what a par 3 is, was the big benefit. I can't say I ever really think about the extra defense around them, but maybe that's a function of the courses I've played.


Long par 4s are definitely brutal for me. Par 5s generally aren't, as I usually play safe off the tee, knowing I'm not getting home in 2.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 11:07:35 AM »
Not to bring up the high capper thing again....


But most par 3s from the whites are usually 175 and less, and most often in the 130-160 range. I'll take this any day and twice on Sunday over a 400+ par 4 where I have to hit two great shots (by my standards) to have a good chance for par.


Also agree with George on par 5s.  Even if you hit a poor tee shot, you can often still make it up to have a short iron approach 3rd.

Kyle Harris

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2018, 11:24:19 AM »
4s that are 5s and 5s that are 4s.

Usually for the same reason.
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jeffwarne

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2018, 11:38:46 AM »
For a high handicapper, it's not the level lie so much, but the flight inducer (tee), that helps most on a par three-and the fact that he only needs to hit one decent tee aided shot.


For the elite player, the par threes tend to produce the longest approaches-as opposed to the wedgefest that modern golf has become on most par 4's> And even if he drives it crooked he's got the tools to still hit the green from a variety of lies and stances.


years ago I'd say par 4's were tougher for elite players by comparison as the driver distance gain on them is more useful than modern equipment on a par3.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 11:59:03 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brad Tufts

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2018, 11:51:06 AM »
It would be interesting to see at what handicap the par three effect meets.

Like, at what index does the ease of having only one shot meet the difficulty of having only one shot?

Perhaps similar to the "average handicap"...I'd guess in the 10-12 range.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2018, 12:32:45 PM »
Any par 4 over 425 yards is basically a par 5 for me. I'm not going to hit the green in two 95% of the time.


As an 11 handicap however, I will always have a shot on those holes, so I'm happy to use it.


A par is a bonus.


Long par 3s can come into the same category.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:34:34 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Thomas Dai

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 12:47:51 PM »
Any par 4 over 425 yards is basically a par 5 for me. I'm not going to hit the green in two 95% of the time.
As an 11 handicap however, I will always have a shot on those holes, so I'm happy to use it.
A par is a bonus.
Long par 3s can come into the same category.


Only thing is Duncan, that off 11 you are pretty unlikely to have a stroke on a long par-3 as only very rarely are they ever a low, even a middling SI. Another area where your point on another thread about SI use/calculation becomes valid.
Atb

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 03:04:50 PM »


Only thing is Duncan, that off 11 you are pretty unlikely to have a stroke on a long par-3 as only very rarely are they ever a low, even a middling SI. Another area where your point on another thread about SI use/calculation becomes valid.



I am probably thinking specifically of the  240 yd  par 3 6th at Reddish Vale. It is SI 4  !


Interestingly, very good players all say that it is by far the most difficult hole on the course. Mid handicappers like myself disagree - we find our two very long par 4s far harder.  We have a decent chance of hitting the green with our drivers at 240 yards downhill - and zero chance of hitting the green with our second shots on a 450 yarder. We're hitting 3-wood while they are hitting 6 - 9 iron!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 03:16:40 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Thomas Dai

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2018, 01:14:38 PM »
SI 4 Duncan. Wow!
I wonder if there are many parís that have a lower SI?
Atb

MLevesque

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Re: What kind of holes do you & amateurs generally drop.....
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2018, 01:30:23 PM »
As a relatively long player with an erratic sand game a well guarded par 3 tends to be my Achilles heel.
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