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John Kirk

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Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2018, 08:49:04 AM »
If the penalty was one stroke per club, I'd probably go with:

1 wood
5 or 7 wood
4 iron
6 iron
8 iron
pitching wedge (46 degree)
gap wedge (50 degree)
sand wedge (56 degree)
putter

If the penalty was two strokes per club, I might try:

1 wood
5 or 7 wood
6 iron
8 iron
gap wedge (50 degree)
sand wedge (56 degree)
putter


A.G._Crockett

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Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2018, 09:05:42 AM »
Interesting how this thread has developed and what I read as general support.



Thomas,
Of course the thread reads as "general support"; it self-selects for guys who either play fewer than 14 clubs, or like the idea.  Those of us (other than, I think, PCraig) that would carry MORE than 14 if allowed aren't likely to post.  It's the same reason that opinion polling in which the sample self-selects have no validity.

This is yet another GCA.com "Grumpy Old Men Seek Return to the Flat Earth Days" thread.  So I'll be the Reverse Grumpy Old Man for purposes of this intellectual exercise.

In the Canadian Skins game years ago, Mickelson, Weir, Love, and Couples all traded clubs and hit from the opposite side on a par three; all four hit 7 irons onto the green.  That was REALLY cool, and REALLY revealing to watch, especially when Couples hit last and said before the shot, "If I miss this, I'm quitting!" before hitting it on the green.  But I don't take the message of THAT to be that I should play lefthanded; thus with stories about Ballesteros, a genetic hand-eye freak if ever there was one, playing with one club.  That means nothing to me.

So for the record: I always walk, and I carry, or rather push, 14 clubs.  Were the Rules to allow it, I'd add a really high lofted wedge, say 62*, I'd carry both a 3W and a 5W instead of just a 4W, and I'd carry either a 5 or a 6 iron in addition to those two hybrids.  17 clubs would get me thru just fine, thank you very much.

And two additional thoughts on this:
1. I play yearly in a 4 club tournament at my course; I don't find it especially enjoyable beyond the fact that I'd rather compete than eat.  The requirements of course management are fun, but hitting the same clubs over and over and over just doesn't do much for me.

2. Stories about Vardon, Ballesteros, and Trevino playing with one club or whatever are no more instructive to me than Nolan Ryan throwing 100 mph fastballs at age 45, or Tom Brady being the best QB in pro football at age 40, or Vince Carter putting up the occasional double-double in the NBA at age 40.  Of course those guys can do crazy stuff; that's why they played professionally in the first place.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2018, 09:19:15 AM »
I play around 10% of my golf with one club. It limits the amount of times I have to bend over to on the tee and at the green. As in life, bending over is the most difficult move in golf.


Played a 36 hole charity event a couple of years ago at Sweetens Cove. One ball, one birdie, one ball. Finished in 4:20.


I'd play all my golf with one club if it ever became socially acceptable.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2018, 09:22:23 AM »
Joe, how do you think you/we would see their adjustments?


Do you think you'd be able to recognize hooks and slices from the fairway to fill in the yardage gaps? Maybe knockdowns?


I hate to say it but I think we would see them simply swing harder if they needed 10 yards more than their stock whatever iron would go.


I really don't know how they would adjust, but I sure would like to find out.  And maybe 10 clubs is too many.  Maybe a lucky seven would really show the best shotmakers!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2018, 09:45:05 AM »

And two additional thoughts on this:
1. I play yearly in a 4 club tournament at my course; I don't find it especially enjoyable beyond the fact that I'd rather compete than eat.  The requirements of course management are fun, but hitting the same clubs over and over and over just doesn't do much for me.

2. Stories about Vardon, Ballesteros, and Trevino playing with one club or whatever are no more instructive to me than Nolan Ryan throwing 100 mph fastballs at age 45, or Tom Brady being the best QB in pro football at age 40, or Vince Carter putting up the occasional double-double in the NBA at age 40.  Of course those guys can do crazy stuff; that's why they played professionally in the first place.


1.  Making the same full swing over and over just doesn't do much for me.


2.  Of course those guys can do crazy stuff; and that's precisely when they're the most fun to watch.


You are right that the thread is somewhat self-selecting ... though there is no law against others sharing their opinions.  Walter Hagen carried something like 20 clubs when it was legal to do so, and it didn't cost him anything.  But I would wager quite a bit that if you have an event at your home club with rules like this, there is no way the winner will have carried 14 clubs.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2018, 09:53:35 AM »

It gives one an appreciation for what a low clubhead speed player faces when tring to hit a 2/3 7 iron to a front pin when not enough spin can be creaetd to stop it.
Of course a better player can hit a high open face cut to stop it by using more speed, but a lower clubhead speed player doesn't have that option and the ball will run over.


Not really a solution for the elite as they really only need driver a hybrid and a sw wedge anyway.


It's been a while since I did it, but I used to occasionally go out and play one of my courses from the forward tees with just a 6-iron, never making more than a 3/4 swing, to see how well they worked for the average woman golfer.  But eventually I decided it would be better to invite a woman to play and just watch her.  ;)


Do you really think the Tour players would be okay just using four clubs [including putter] ?  And that driver would be one of them?  I think the difficulty of dialing in distances would cost them 2-3 birdies a round, so they'd be likely to add the irons they were most likely to use on that course.


If we actually designed golf courses for this rule, I would be much more conscious of mixing up the yardages, too.  You wouldn't see a lot of par-3's where you could hit a full wedge or a hybrid.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2018, 09:55:43 AM »
Just out of interest, I played 36 evening holes at Crail a couple of years ago with one club. I chose:


A wedge for Balcomie
A 3-iron for Craighead


I scored pretty well round Balcomie. Length of course clearly plays a part.


Reason I did it was I just wanted a walk and needed a walking stick.

Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2018, 09:59:34 AM »
I think we would see almost every tour player using one of those "phrankenwood" clubs off the tee for versatility much like Mickelson has been doing on and off for a while now.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2018, 10:15:42 AM »



If we actually designed golf courses for this rule, I would be much more conscious of mixing up the yardages, too.  You wouldn't see a lot of par-3's where you could hit a full wedge or a hybrid.



I'm not sure the design would be as important as the maintenance. The firmer the golf course, the more options/distances available for hitting each club.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2018, 10:23:03 AM »
AG -
as is often the case, I hear what you're saying here and you make yourself exceedingly clear!   :)

But I think in this case, you might be missing the trees for the forest, i.e. the specificity of the very many individual and differing skill sets for the general, grumpy old men collective.

And example of what I mean: I played with Joe H once, and though he was barely trying I could see that he was a very good golfer. Now, a golfer like Joe will be playing with 7 clubs because he long ago stopped caring about his score and instead likes to maximize his fun by creating shots -- and is good enough to create them! 

A golfer like me, on the other hand, still does care very much about shooting his best score, and would gladly give up "fun" to be able to grind out par after par, and doesn't have skill enough to *create* almost anything save for a decently struck stock iron shot or fairly accurate tee shot.  And for a golfer like me, it has proven itself to be true that I don't score any worse and never have my *worst* scores playing with 8 clubs, and that I sometimes score even better. 

Why? 1) Because a 3 wood off the tee almost never gets me in trouble, or at least in as much trouble as a driver does 2) Because this old Ping 5 wood I have should be made illegal, so easy is it to hit high and straight. 3) Because having only every other iron in the bag means that I'm forced to take "more club" (a 6 instead of the missing 7 iron), and it's always the case that "more" iron is in fact the "right" iron for me 4) Because I don't practice hardly at all with short clubs, so having -- and trying to use during a round -- an almost untouched 53 degree gap or 60 degree lob wedge is just a recipe for dashed hopes and disastrous results, and 5) Because the limited number of clubs acts as/replaces the will power I don't possess, i.e. the will power to keep my ego in check, and to play within myself.

I can understand why someone like you scores better with the full 14 clubs; you're a good and long time golfer who knows how to use (and finds use for) each of those clubs. For someone like me, less clubs actually keeps the game simpler -- which is very good mentally and thus helps me physically. 

And yet, all that said: if you asked me to come out and play a round tomorrow, I'd still have to make myself, *force* myself, not to bring along 14 clubs; such is the power and appeal of playing with a 'full set' of clubs, a 'proper' set of clubs, especially for a 'traditionalist' like me. And for that reason alone, if for none of those listed above, I think it useful to sometimes play with a half set, i.e. simply to shake off the automatic and habitual response in seeking for something fresh. 

Well, that's it. I know I will not have changed your mind  :)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 10:31:44 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2018, 10:50:23 AM »
I can shoot the same crappy score with 5 clubs.  Driver, 4-wood or rescue, 7-iron, sand wedge and putter.  As it stands I only have 13 in the bag.  14 is frankly too many.  It might be interesting and provoke more shotmaking to limit it to 8 or 10, not to mention promoting carrying.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2018, 10:53:53 AM »
Jud


I think you are right, the fewer clubs you have the more proficient you become in knock down shots or three quarter shots etc but more than that, I think you really think your way round more, or at least I found I did.


Thinking back to my Silloth days that I mentioned in a previous post, I'm pretty sure none of my regular cronies that I played with normally had as many as 14 clubs or anything like it.


Niall

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2018, 11:05:02 AM »
Has society changed or is it just romantic of me to think that not so long ago everyone tried to do their best at everything they did.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2018, 11:08:06 AM »
So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.


What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?




Pete Lavallee

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Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2018, 11:58:52 AM »
We had a golfer at Balboa park who, when it was legal, had a 54" driver! He small in stature and probably hit a regulation length driver about 220 Yards. But he could hit that 54" driver over 300 yards; I swear you thought you would be sucked in to the vortex when he swung that thing down at the ball! When the USGA banned it he decided to "protest" by "simplifying the game". He carried only a driver, 8 iron and sand wedge and putted with either the SW or driver. The Club was afraid that he would establish a handicap with just those 3 clubs and then enter a tournament with a full set and clean up. They contacted the SCGA to see how they should proceed. The SCGA said he should be banned from the Men's Club thus eliminating our potential problem!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 12:20:28 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2018, 12:13:31 PM »
So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.


What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?


Kalen-Do you mean how would the player interact with the existing architecture or how would it affect yet to be built courses?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2018, 12:31:23 PM »
So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.


What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?


Kalen-Do you mean how would the player interact with the existing architecture or how would it affect yet to be built courses?


I was thinking more of the latter, the former is what we've been discussing up until now...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2018, 12:48:25 PM »
Has society changed or is it just romantic of me to think that not so long ago everyone tried to do their best at everything they did.


Society has changed, drastically.  Are your kids as driven as you are?  Or were?  I'd say they have other priorities entirely.  But that's a topic much bigger than golf.


But to this topic, you can still try to do your best with 7 clubs or however many.  You said yourself you'd just like to use one, and I imagine you are still competing with just one.  It's a way of making the game harder, really ... quite the opposite of those who think I'm trying to make it easier.


I'm just exploring this topic as another way to bifurcate without really changing anything.




Bob Montle

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Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2018, 12:49:50 PM »
I am surprised how many people would still carry multiple wedges.

One could hit an 8 iron for all shots up to about 130 yds and only use a wedge for where you have to fly an obstacle.

My "Required" clubs would only be:

Driver
#4 Hybrid
6 iron
8 iron
Sand Wedge
Putter

Anything else would just be frosting on the cake.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2018, 12:52:09 PM »
So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.


What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?

None
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2018, 12:52:14 PM »
Has society changed or is it just romantic of me to think that not so long ago everyone tried to do their best at everything they did.


Society has changed, drastically.  Are your kids as driven as you are?  Or were?  I'd say they have other priorities entirely.  But that's a topic much bigger than golf.


But to this topic, you can still try to do your best with 7 clubs or however many.  You said yourself you'd just like to use one, and I imagine you are still competing with just one.  It's a way of making the game harder, really ... quite the opposite of those who think I'm trying to make it easier.


I'm just exploring this topic as another way to bifurcate without really changing anything.




No one has addressed how this would affect tour players financially if the manufacturers reduce the stipends paid for using their equipment.


And the collateral damage that will produce.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2018, 12:59:19 PM »
I play with weird sets all the time, and rarely on purpose. Often just depends on what I have in the trunk, which can be weird. I'm like the anti JK, which isn't surprising to me or him. He plays to win, I play for fun. He wins, I have fun, so it sounds like we're both happy. Though JK would probably be unhappy with me, if he cared at all.


Driver, 4 iron, 7 iron, wedge, putter would likely serve me as well as the full set. Maybe it's me, maybe it's Maybelline...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2018, 01:02:23 PM »
Sounds like the next GCA event should implement something like this.....








Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2018, 01:04:39 PM »
Erik - man, that's some impressive golf! It must be very satisfying to play the game so well. I keep hoping that such proficiency lies out there in the future for me, but with each passing year my doubts grow...
Two tricks, really:
  • An incredibly thin soled club helps with hitting some higher lofted flops and pitches.
  • A LOT of course knowledge.
I've always had a good sense of feel for short shots. I'll hit 8-irons from 115 if the shot suits it, and I never practice those shots. Just always been good at them.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2018, 01:27:49 PM »
Erik - man, that's some impressive golf! It must be very satisfying to play the game so well. I keep hoping that such proficiency lies out there in the future for me, but with each passing year my doubts grow...
Two tricks, really:
  • An incredibly thin soled club helps with hitting some higher lofted flops and pitches.
  • A LOT of course knowledge.
I've always had a good sense of feel for short shots. I'll hit 8-irons from 115 if the shot suits it, and I never practice those shots. Just always been good at them.

You are more talented than most for sure. Maybe it was when we were growing up you didn't even have a full set to play with and had to make it work with what you had?  I remember my dad had a hand me down hodge podge of clubs with a driver, 5,7,9, putter only.  I played with those until I was maybe 10 or 11 I think.  I remember I learned to hit my 5 iron like a stinger, or so I thought, for more distance.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

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