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Brian Ross

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #150 on: March 08, 2018, 08:21:33 AM »
Sven,


We have the Ross plan for Catawba Country Club hanging here in our office, though it is badly, badly faded. Here are a couple of pictures (sorry for the poor quality):










« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 08:33:55 AM by Brian Ross »
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #151 on: March 08, 2018, 11:51:25 AM »
As we know, Ross passed away in 1948.

Ross had parted ways with Hatch and Johnson a few years into the Depression.  Eric Nelson took on a role working for the Pinehurst Resort.  McGovern remained as his sole associate managing all of the firm's work in the late '30's and through the '40's (although William Gordon was still doing construction).  It is tough to tell how involved Ross was with these later projects, but if the articles on Alamance are any indication he was at least still handling the design work.

The listing notes contains a couple of listings for courses that were done by McGovern after Ross' death (Llanerch and Gaffney).  The last real Ross work was at Moore Park in North Carolina.


1948


Moore Park Golf Club (o/k/a Mooresville GC) (Mooresville, NC) - 9 Holes, Remodel in 1948, Still in Existence

1948 Ross/McGovern Plan

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #152 on: March 08, 2018, 12:13:15 PM »
Ross & Associates produced at least two course listing booklets.  One of them was revised as of 1930, the second contains courses from after that date.  My guess is that there was at least one more such booklet, hence the revised as of 1930.


The 1930 booklet notes on its cover page that it was a partial list of prominent courses, suggesting they did not cover ever single project Ross touched.  But they are as good a source as any for Ross' own personal account of what he had done.


I have only seen pieces of the two booklets I noted, and would welcome the chance to examine each in their entirety. 


I'm going to annotate this thread with what information I do have, but it is certainly not complete and if a course isn't covered it doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't covered in the booklets (although the listing by State in the booklets does help in narrowing that down, which I will note).


I think we should take the information from the Post-1930 booklet with a grain of salt.  My guess is that the pages I have are from something prepared well down the road after Ross' death, and not by anyone in the Ross & Associates group.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 09:59:00 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #153 on: March 16, 2018, 09:38:12 AM »
There a few mysteries that I haven't included in the listing yet.

One of these concerns Twin Ponds G&CC in Utica, NY.  When Twin Ponds was originally built in 1914, it was known as Utica G&CC. 

A 1942 article on the club discusses a bit of its history, and notes Donald Ross and Jerome Travers were engaged to lay it out.

April 26, 1942 Utica Observer-Dispatch -





Going back and searching for articles on the creation of the course, I can find no mention of Ross being involved other than the article below noting that either Ross or Travers would add bunkers to the new course.  An Oct. 2, 1915 Utica Herald Dispatch article (not included) notes Walter Travis was to arrive to consult on the further development of the course, but neither this article nor the one below tells us who actually did the original layout.

So did Ross actually have something to do with the original design, or did the story get twisted along the way?

Sept. 26, 1915 Utica Sunday Tribune -








"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #154 on: March 16, 2018, 09:43:23 AM »
Another mystery, this one probably being a project that never got off the ground.

Plans for a course to be located to the north of the towns of Quogue and Westhampton on Long Island.

Nov. 18, 1926 The County Review -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #155 on: March 16, 2018, 09:50:39 AM »
A third mystery, or most likely just an example of how non-contemporaneous accounts don't always get it right.

April 6, 1947 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #156 on: March 16, 2018, 10:02:13 AM »
The following report on the Blue and White courses at Salisbury links on Long Island has some intrigue.  The 1951 date for the opening of these courses puts them after Ross' death.  Timing wise it is possible he did the design work prior to passing away, but it is just as likely that the article has the wrong guy for the design.

Jan. 12, 1951 Long Island Star-Journal -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #157 on: March 16, 2018, 10:14:05 AM »
When I first read the following article, I thought it might be a reference to Cheraw CC, but the location noted in the article doesn't quite fit.

March 22, 1923 Rockingham Post-Dispatch -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BHoover

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #158 on: March 16, 2018, 11:28:01 AM »
Sven, do you have anything on what Ross did at Springfield in Ohio?

Brian Finn

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #159 on: March 16, 2018, 03:17:25 PM »
Sven, do you have anything on what Ross did at Springfield in Ohio?
He mentions it in reply #72 (year 1921)
New for '24: Monifieth, Montrose, Panmure, Carnoustie, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin...

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #160 on: March 16, 2018, 03:39:42 PM »
Sven,

I think I posted an article or three about Travis doing the bunkering at Utica UG&CC in the Travis/Utica thread. Here's one suggesting Ross or Travers   was going to do it. The Shermans of Yahnundasis were good friends of Travis, and I think he did the bunkering after the course was built. He was at Yahnundasis to make the same recommendation for them, and the next day he and Tom McManus were paired against the Shermas for a match at UG&CC.

https://tinyurl.com/y9yqsdzo
https://tinyurl.com/y8cb7a43





p.s. I also think Lancelot(?) Servos was the name of the man who laid it out.   

 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 04:04:09 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #161 on: March 18, 2018, 12:35:02 PM »
In another thread Bret Lawrence posted a number of articles trying to clear up the Ross/Stiles confusion over Lake Lure in North Carolina.  Those articles clearly indicate the course was designed by Stiles.  The developers of the project did try to hire Ross, which makes sense due to the involvment of E. S. Draper.  Why he was not hired or decided not to take the project remains a mystery.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #162 on: March 18, 2018, 02:11:28 PM »
Another project that never came to fruition for Ross was the Dunedin Municipal Golf Course.  When Ross designed the Dunedin Isles course around 1926, he also did a design for a municipal course.

Interest in the course seems to have lagged after 1926, with the bonds issuance to finance the course being cancelled.

May 8, 1926 Tampa Times -



May 9, 1926 Tampa Tribune -



Aug. 30, 1926 Tampa Bay Times -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Brian Ross

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #163 on: March 18, 2018, 02:51:05 PM »
When I first read the following article, I thought it might be a reference to Cheraw CC, but the location noted in the article doesn't quite fit.

There is no golf course on Everetts Lake, which is about halfway between Rockingham and Cheraw on Route 1, about a half mile from the state line on the North Carolina side, so it's definitely not referring to Cheraw CC. My guess is that this was never built.
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #164 on: March 18, 2018, 04:56:02 PM »
Another project where Ross was involved in the initial phase, this time in Vicksburg, MS.

A course would be built here shortly after this date, with Stiles and Van Kleek doing the construction.

Feb. 28, 1928 Greenwood Commonwealth -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #165 on: March 18, 2018, 05:40:30 PM »
A recent thread asked why Ross did not leave a slew of proteges in his wake.  Part of this probably had to do with timing, with the Depression and World War II throwing a 15 year wrinkle into the careers of any younger guys emerging from the Ross shadow.  That being said, there were a few names that merit mentioning, including Edward Dearie.  Dearie, like William Gordon and a number of other guys (Way, Reid, Connellan, etc.), spent time working on courses for Ross.  By the time the mid-1940's came around, many of these guys were gone or at the tail end of their careers. 

May 1932 Golfdom -



Jan. 12, 1933 Detroit Free Press -

« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 05:43:45 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #166 on: March 19, 2018, 10:01:53 PM »
Around 1924 and 1925 the golf scene in Sarasota, FL exploded.  Ross was at the center of this work.

The article below discusses three courses that were either being contemplated or were already in the works.  The Longboat Key course is evident, and the reference to the course near Indian Beach (this was the Sara Bay/Whitefield course). 

The third course noted is a bit of a mystery.  Andrew McAnsh was a developer who built the Mira Mar Hotel around this time.  In doing so he received a bit of a deal from the city on property taxes.  The timing of this course fits with the start of the Bobby Jones municipal course project, but the article makes this sound like McAnsh was building his own course.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #167 on: March 21, 2018, 05:11:52 PM »
Another Ross project that doesn't appear to have gotten off the ground, this time two 18 hole courses on the Sherwood Forest estate near Stone Mountain, GA.  RTJ would do a course near here later on.

Jan. 27, 1924 Atlanta Constitution -

« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 05:15:25 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #168 on: March 21, 2018, 07:23:12 PM »
Sven:


This is a listing for a potential Ross course that appears to have been built, but no longer exists.  The course was named Brevard Country Club in Brevard, NC.


In 1925, the Brevard News ran a story that mentions their hopes for a Donald Ross designed and constructed course were about to be realized.  The article also mentions that they hoped Ross would be in town within the next few days to lay out the course.


Brevard News-September 3, 1925:




The following year a story was published stating the course was open for play and described the work that needed to be accomplished to construct the golf course.  The article noted the course was designed by an expert golf architect, but never a mention of Ross again.  The 1926 story also listed yardages for nine holes.


This project also happened to be a development E.S. Draper was working on, according to a December 1925 report.  There are a number of other stories discussing the club in the late 20's, 30's and 40's, but I haven't seen Ross mentioned again.  Whether Ross designed the course or not is hard to say with my limited findings, but I thought I would bring it to the attention of this thread to see if anyone has more information on this course.


Bret


Edward Glidewell

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #169 on: March 21, 2018, 08:09:54 PM »
This project also happened to be a development E.S. Draper was working on, according to a December 1925 report.  There are a number of other stories discussing the club in the late 20's, 30's and 40's, but I haven't seen Ross mentioned again.  Whether Ross designed the course or not is hard to say with my limited findings, but I thought I would bring it to the attention of this thread to see if anyone has more information on this course.


I found this from a local newspaper, suggesting the course existed until sometime in the 1960s, but also doesn't refer to who designed it:


The Old Hickory House Building was originally the home of Brevard County Club. Construction work began on July 3, 1939, using Works Progress Administration (WPA) funds and workers. The walls were built using saddle-notched round logs, which were sealed and painted. The chimney, mantel and other features in the building and outside are made from fieldstone.  The surrounding property was the site of a nine-hole golf course, which was first commissioned in 1925. The course was eventually about 3,200 yards long. The building has about 5,000 square feet of space, including the main floor, a basement and a second floor that was used as living quarters for the course’s caretakers. The course was used into the mid-60s, when the Glen Cannon Golf Club was built. The golf course and clubhouse property, about 120 acres in total, was put up for auction in 1966. The clubhouse remained, but the golf course property was eventually developed for housing. Since the early 1970s, the former clubhouse has been the site of a series of restaurants.
http://www.transylvaniatimes.com/story/2017/01/12/features/old-face-giving-historic-building-a-new-lease-brevard-nc/30905.html

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #170 on: March 21, 2018, 10:15:16 PM »
The DRS listing has entries for Elks CC in Worthington, OH (basically in Columbus) and Wyandot Golf Course in Centerburg, OH (a bit outside of Columbus).  It notes the course in Worthington as Still in Existence, while it has the Centerburg course as NLE.


Elks CC was purchased in the early 1930's and renamed Wyandot CC, a club which survived into the 1950's before it went under.


There is still a Wyandot Golf Course in Centerburg.  I have my doubts that it was ever a Ross course. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 10:30:49 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #171 on: March 21, 2018, 11:38:20 PM »
Just like E. S. Draper in North Carolina, Ross had connections with landscape architects and planners in Florida.  One of those guys was John Watson.  Watson was responsible for a number of major Ross projects, including much of his work in Sarasota.

One Watson/Ross project that never got off the ground was a major development in Lake Butler, FL.

Sept. 25, 1925 Bradford County Telegraph -





"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Dave Maberry

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #172 on: March 22, 2018, 08:35:06 AM »
The DRS listing has entries for Elks CC in Worthington, OH (basically in Columbus) and Wyandot Golf Course in Centerburg, OH (a bit outside of Columbus).  It notes the course in Worthington as Still in Existence, while it has the Centerburg course as NLE.


Elks CC was purchased in the early 1930's and renamed Wyandot CC, a club which survived into the 1950's before it went under.


There is still a Wyandot Golf Course in Centerburg.  I have my doubts that it was ever a Ross course.


Sven,


For information on Elks CC vs existing Wyandot Golf course see http://billlisassportinglife.blogspot.com/2013/12/elks-wyandots-long-goodbye-saga-of-lost.html
This explains some of confusion regarding the two courses.


For Ross involvement see http://billlisassportinglife.blogspot.com/2013/12/elks-wyandots-long-goodbye-saga-of-lost_26.html


The chapters from this blog turned into "Golf in Columbus at Wyandot Country Club" by Bill Case released in 2014 which is still available today

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #173 on: March 23, 2018, 01:17:18 PM »
The DRS Listing notes two courses in Hendersonville, NC designed during the mid-1920's.  The first is Hendersonville CC o/k/a Laurel Park CC with a date of 1925.  The second is Country Club Estates noted as a Design in 1926.

I am almost positive these were one and the same. 

The first notation for a golf course in Hendersonville I have appears in a Jan. 20, 1921 Asheville Citizen-Times article which notes a new 9 hole course.  The 1923 Annual Guide has a listing for a 9 hole 2,575 yard course with a date of organization of 1919.  The 1926 and 1927 Guides note the club was being reorganized with a new course to be ready in 1927.

Around 1924 Ross was commissioned to design a new 18 hole course for the club (covered in the 1925 Listing above). 

As the brief article below notes, the interests of the club were acquired by a new entity.  My guess is that this is the entity that was promoting its real estate venture as "Country Club Estates."



The Laurel Park neighborhood, the Country Club Estates neighborhood and the current location of the Hendersonville CC are all within a stone's throw of each other on the map.

This article suggests that the Ross course was already up and running, but later reports in the early 1930's (and the club's website) indicate the course wasn't completed until later on.  It is of interest to note that the Ross Plan included in the 1925 Listing for Hendersonville/Laurel Park matches almost to a tee what is on the ground now.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Reunderstanding Ross
« Reply #174 on: March 28, 2018, 11:04:38 AM »
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 11:12:17 AM by Chris_Blakely »

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