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Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 09:07:10 PM »
Bret:


Do you have a date for those Library of Congress photos?  I've seen notations that they are from 1912, shortly after the course was completed.


We know Barker did the original design (with the possibility that Ross had a hand), and that the lay out was inspected by Travis prior to opening.  Assuming the GCGC-esque features were original, that would most likely make them Barker's handiwork.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 10:28:25 PM »
Bret:


Do you have a date for those Library of Congress photos?  I've seen notations that they are from 1912, shortly after the course was completed.


We know Barker did the original design (with the possibility that Ross had a hand), and that the lay out was inspected by Travis prior to opening.  Assuming the GCGC-esque features were original, that would most likely make them Barker's handiwork.


Sven


Sven,


I checked the loc.gov website. The dates for the first two photos I posted are listed as 1912, while the third photo is listed as some time between 1910-1920.


Bret

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2018, 10:20:19 AM »
Another fall of 1906 article discussing the changes by Travis (Pittsburgh Daily Post, Oct. 7, 1906).  The article seemingly suggests that Travis was almost beating CBM to the punch with the idea of "borrowing" from the great Old World courses, and notes several of the direct inspirations, including the impetus for the railroad tie bunkering.

There is also a bit of coverage on the move away from cross-bunkering.  Here, the resulting side of the fairway bunkers were not placed to catch the common miss, but simply remained as vestiges of their more penal predecessors, and seemingly were not moved with much thought to creating choices for the player.

This article goes into a bit more detail on the mounds added to the 2nd, 4th, 9th and 12th greens, identifying those at the 9th and 12th as the most severe.  It is of interest to note that the existing green surface was rolled up, the mounds built and then the sod rolled back with the gaps being filled in with sod.  The article also touches on the method of play for getting a ball over the mounds, noting one could use a putter but that a mashie "would seem to be the better club."

Despite this article noting that the mounds at the 12th were "really part of the putting green," from the early photos of the hole it is evident that the grass on the mounds was not (and probably could not be) maintained at the same level as the green itself.  Later photos indicate that this practice changed, but it was after the 3 to 5 foot high mounds themselves had been softened and altered to a great degree.



« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 11:15:38 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 10:21:53 AM »

Here's a larger version of the first section of the article.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2018, 10:54:19 AM »
Another early photo of the 12th.

Brooklyn Daily Eagle Sept. 11, 1908 -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2018, 02:20:59 PM »
Great stuff Sven, thanks.


It's interesting to note that Barker was a Travis disciple, having worked with him to implement the changes at Garden City where Barker was the pro at the time.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 02:44:12 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2018, 02:59:00 PM »
Barker didn't show up in the US until late 1907, so the changes we're talking about predate him.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2018, 03:38:33 PM »
Barker didn't show up in the US until late 1907, so the changes we're talking about predate him.


True enough but simply noting that Barker by the time of Columbia was well aware of Travis' design innovations/imitations at Garden City and had helped him implement additional changes after his arrival.  My understanding is that Travis thought highly of Barker and encouraged his design career.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 09:38:57 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sean_A

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2018, 05:03:45 AM »


I really like the longhorn bunkers to the rear of the green.  They are set so far back that it suggests this hole was really a hit and hoper for most golfers...just trying to clear the front bunker then see what gives.  Does the green slope to the rear?

Ciao 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 05:07:13 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2018, 05:22:15 AM »



You folks really do have some tremendous stuff in your archives.


Would be interesting to compare this aerial with one from today. Not just from the golf perspective but from the how the area has developed over the years.
atb

MCirba

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Re: The Creation of the 12th at Garden City
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 02:33:23 PM »
This 1908 US Amateur preview article in the New York Sun once again introduces the idea that one can putt on the 12th green over, around, or using the mounds as carom objects.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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