[Craig Moore]

Interesting article below starting a debate on bunker rakes.  I can understand and sympathize with both sides. 
A new form of ‘stymie’ might begin during tournament play if rakes were removed. 
Thoughts?
Would make for some interesting finishes during those late day rounds.....[size=78%]Could put the hazard back into the bunker.  [/size]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-we-should-do-away-with-bunker-rakes

[Jon Wiggett]

I have always been a proponent of not having bunkers raked other than to prevent weed infestation. Let the golfer use his/her foot or a club. It is a hazard and should be allowed to act as one.

[Thomas Dai]

A few threads herein on this one over the years.
Fortunately we can’t rake ponds!
Atb

[jeffwarne]

While I like the concept of skill being put back in bunker shots, and even randomness.......


There's nothing random about being first out at 7 am vs, last out at 3:26


Expecting people to kick the sand in like PV and Friar's Head is giving them a poor tool for the task-you either want them raked or you don't.


Nicklaus' furrors is a perfect idea and the hand rakes for play could have the same furrows.


That said, I could live with the idea and often play under those conditions

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - do you know Jimmy Demaret's great line about the furrowing rake that Oakmont used to use?

"If they'd raked North Africa with it, Rommel would've never gotten past Casablanca".

Ah, they don't make 'em like Jimmy Demaret anymore.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I too liked Nicklaus's rakes.

But the PGA Tour pros whined, and they get their way…

[Matthew Mollica]

No rakes at Tara Iti. 😁

[Lou_Duran]

I marvel at how well people on this DG must play given the frequent calls for more difficult bunkers, shorter balls, less technologically advanced clubs, lower maintenance regimes, etc.  Most of the courses I play are probably in the top 10% in terms of gca and conditioning.  My short game is decent, but I get up and down from the sand about 25% of the time.  The last thing I want is un-raked bunkers or furrow-creating rakes.

Really, I can't relate to the GD writer who claims that golfers expect and demand perfect conditions.  That is certainly not my experience and I play a lot and widely.  Most people I know are very happy with relatively firm, 9'-10' greens, bunkers with some sand in them, and fellow golfers who tidy-up after themselves.  I officiate a half-dozen local and national qualifiers each year where conditions are sometimes lacking, and the complaints are minimal.  I think that the media, perhaps to make a point, creates too damned many straw men. 

[David_Tepper]

Not again!

[Jon Wiggett]

I marvel at how well people on this DG must play given the frequent calls for more difficult bunkers, shorter balls, less technologically advanced clubs, lower maintenance regimes, etc.  Most of the courses I play are probably in the top 10% in terms of gca and conditioning.  My short game is decent, but I get up and down from the sand about 25% of the time.  The last thing I want is un-raked bunkers or furrow-creating rakes.

Really, I can't relate to the GD writer who claims that golfers expect and demand perfect conditions.  That is certainly not my experience and I play a lot and widely.  Most people I know are very happy with relatively firm, 9'-10' greens, bunkers with some sand in them, and fellow golfers who tidy-up after themselves.  I officiate a half-dozen local and national qualifiers each year where conditions are sometimes lacking, and the complaints are minimal.  I think that the media, perhaps to make a point, creates too damned many straw men.

Lou,


great post and nice to hear a different narrative on the expectations of golfers. My experience is that the greenfee/visiting golfer is far more tolerant than the member golfer. My reason for wanting a reduction in raking is to make bunkers a little tougher for the better player (I do not think it will effect the average golfer) and a reduction in costs.


Jon

[Kyle Harris]

Nicklaus' furrors is a perfect idea and the hand rakes for play could have the same furrows.

Not even remotely perfect. The furrow rakes simple guarantee a result, which is the strike against the current de facto setup of bunkers found at the highest levels of tournament play.

If you know what is going to happen when your ball is in a bunker, it ceases to be a hazard - regardless of how difficult the guaranteed result may be.

[Thomas Dai]

Permit a ball to be dropped outside the sand bunker under penalty. A hazard should be a true hazard. Modern day sand bunkers under the current RoG are mainly faux hazards.
Atb

[jeffwarne]

Nicklaus' furrors is a perfect idea and the hand rakes for play could have the same furrows.

If you know what is going to happen when your ball is in a bunker, it ceases to be a hazard - regardless of how difficult the guaranteed result may be.

While I agree with you about the lack of randomness of such a setup, your statement is actually ludicrous...
Does a 10 foot deep water hazrad cease to be a hazard because it's 10 feet deep and we know what's going to happen?


We actually agree in spirit, but trust me a furrowed bunker would be hazardous-it would make short sided spinning bunker shots far more difficult-We might not agrree that's more predictable-but it still makes short siding the ball more hazardous.
Lack of predictability may be our preference for hazards, but it's not the definition of a hazard.


I'm very ok with less bunker maintenance and randomness-and certainly way less bunkers in general with the ones left hazardous, but I used to laugh at how crazy the caddies got from owner pressure at a certain course about the way the bunkers were "kicked in"(or not "kicked in") properly.
If you want them kicked in perfectly, give us a rake.
Or let's just have at it and only rake as needed to keep undergrowth out.


I guess I'm not OK with perfectly raked bunkers for the first group out for competitive golf, and  conditions steadily detiorating throughout the day due to a wanna be Pine Valley policy-especally in a one day qualifier.
Don't rake them for a week before the event-I'm ok with that.

[Kyle Harris]

Jeff Warne,

The hazard line is very rarely painted on the water's edge, so there's a buffer of randomness between the water and the through the green area. How many times has your ball been in the water hazard but playable? That's still randomness. The 2019 revisions clean most of this up as the concept of Penalty Area ceases to be grouped within the concept of Hazard. One of the many reasons I like the revisions is the inferred statement that bunkers are indeed a special case.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Permit a ball to be dropped outside the sand bunker under penalty. A hazard should be a true hazard. Modern day sand bunkers under the current RoG are mainly faux hazards.

2019. 19.3b. Two strokes penalty.

[Ken Moum]

Nicklaus' furrors is a perfect idea and the hand rakes for play could have the same furrows.

Not even remotely perfect. The furrow rakes simple guarantee a result, which is the strike against the current de facto setup of bunkers found at the highest levels of tournament play.

If you know what is going to happen when your ball is in a bunker, it ceases to be a hazard - regardless of how difficult the guaranteed result may be.

Actually, my recollection is that the pro's main bitch was that the furrows were too random.  The difference between a ball that was in the bottom of a furrow vs. one that managed to stay up on a ridge.


They said it wasn't "fair."


K

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