[Peter Pallotta]

Bob  - yes, when you put it that way I understand and agree with you.
And while, as Jeff B says, I think the professionals on here don't get lazy or take short cuts with their easier/weak/breather holes, I've seen many a poor and uninteresting golf hole by architects who did get lazy, and so I'm a bit skeptical.
Again, as an average golfer I'm right with you in liking (and appreciating) a distinct change of pace; but do I think a committed professional should make every effort to enliven even their 'weak' holes -- a little drop off on the green here, a small centre-line bunker there etc.
To use Don's analogy of the bit player: yes indeed, they are absolutely necessary and not everyone can be the star; but at least give me an Allan Hale Sr, a Jack Warden, a Lionel Barrymore, a Walter Brennan, or a Thomas Mitchell, all of whom in countless supporting/character roles were at least as interesting as whoever the leading man happened to be, and in many B pictures were often the best parts of the whole film!
Peter   

[Bob Montle]

Bob  - yes, when you put it that way I understand and agree with you.
And while, as Jeff B says, I think the professionals on here don't get lazy or take short cuts with their easier/weak/breather holes, I've seen many a poor and uninteresting golf hole by architects who did get lazy, and so I'm a bit skeptical.
Again, as an average golfer I'm right with you in liking (and appreciating) a distinct change of pace; but do I think a committed professional should make every effort to enliven even their 'weak' holes -- a little drop off on the green here, a small centre-line bunker there etc.
To use Don's analogy of the bit player: yes indeed, they are absolutely necessary and not everyone can be the star; but at least give me an Allan Hale Sr, a Jack Warden, a Lionel Barrymore, a Walter Brennan, or a Thomas Mitchell, all of whom in countless supporting/character roles were at least as interesting as whoever the leading man happened to be, and in many B pictures were often the best parts of the whole film!
Peter

I agree Peter.
The breather hole I was speaking of has an 80 yd wide fairway with a downhill shot from the tee.
But there is a small round bunker right in the middle of the fairway at normal driving distance.
Also, the second shot is uphill to a green with a false front.  Still a breather hole, but with interest.

[Tim Martin]

Tom-It’s hard for me to believe that most artist’s regardless of discipline are not striving for some level of perfection. I found a definition that states “perfection” is the action or process of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible. I can’t imagine that every one of your designs has not attempted to offer a golf course that is as faultless as possible.

Perfection in what way?  The "goal" in designing each hole doesn't need to be the same.  I'm a huge fan of variety.  I dislike penal courses but enjoy a penal hole or two per round.
Too much water is detestable but I like having a creek or three.   I'd rather play on a course with trees scattered (in the right places) than to play at flat and treeless or parkland courses.   For example,  I don't mind one hole which doglegs around a woods.  The same applies to elevation changes.  Variety is the key.  Give me an adventure!  Make me delighted with what the next few holes bring me.  Make each hole memorable.  I fondly remember some "week" holes that stand out as a respite from a difficult stretch.
The easiest (weakest?) hole on a course may still be enjoyable to play purely from aesthetic reasons.

Bob-I agree that the easiest or weakest hole may still be enjoyable to play. I think the definition of "weak(er) has shifted depending on the poster. Maybe I misunderstood Tom's intent is his reply # 25 but my point was that unlike the other disciplines he mentioned that purposefully created a flaw in their work to "free themselves from the burden of trying to make it perfect" that wouldn't be true of his designing a golf course. I don't think he purposely creates a flaw to unburden himself although I don't want to speak for him. If this confusing I apologize.

[Tim Gallant]

I think weak is the wrong term. Subtle or supporting would be better I think. Every actor in a movie can’t play lead and every musician can’t play lead.


I’m working with a furniture designer. One of his designs just won a huge show in Chicago, one of the two top shows in the world, the other being in Italy.


When I took him into the space where we wanted the furniture piece, he spent about 10 minutes silently walking around in small circles. Then he says “I don’t know what to look at, you made the cabinets look great, and the floor, and the walls, and the ceiling. Everything is great but nothing supports the other, you want this wow piece and I want it to disappear in here”.

Don,


I complete agree. And it seems, that while definitions may change, we are all more or less in agreement that a weak or breather hole can have its place, and even enhance the overall experience.


Which is why I think it is odd that a course like Royal Dornoch feels the need to make changes to it's golf course. From what little I have read, the 7th is basically being brought closer to the cliff to get more views, etc. But after the stretch of 2-6, isn't it time for a break?


And maybe that's what the next era will look back on and see when they critique the 2nd golden age - that we tried to maximise the strategic and visual interest of EVERY hole, without considering it within the context of the whole. Take 18 at North Berwick. No one can claim that to be one of the best par-4s in the world as a stand alone hole. But because of where it comes in the round, it fits perfectly.

[Thomas Dai]

Consider for a moment a golf course as a chain made up of 18 links. And chains have a weakest link.


If you consider one particular hole on a course as the weakest hole, the weakest link, and you upgrade/replace/strengthen that particular hole/link, then another hole becomes the weakest.
Do you then need to modify a further hole/link to be stronger? And where do you stop....all 18?


Atb

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