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Mike_Young

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Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« on: December 04, 2017, 05:01:06 PM »
Name me 5 things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf at most courses without affecting it or perhaps even saving dollars.. 

So many things are constantly added to the game by the industry as needs and yet they often cost the individual course while making money for the industry vendor. 

1.  World Golf Foundation
2.  National Golf Foundation
3.  1/4 inch height of cut on teeing areas
4.  GPS Systems in golf cars
5.  Handicap System
6.  Premium golf ball such as Pro V
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 09:36:21 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2017, 05:25:11 PM »
In the UK you can reduce the cost of golf by 40% by having a clubhouse containing just a sale area to take green fees, sale golf balls, tees, hot and cold drinks, beer, snacks (up to burger & chips). Just Mans/Ladies toilet facility. (1-2 persons)


Reduce number of bunkers, keeping their identity but with grass.


Maintain fairways once a week in a half v half pattern.


Maintain tees once a week at 15mm with the same mower that cuts the tee banks.


Maintain greens at 6mm with every other day mowing.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2017, 05:26:04 PM »
Any course yardage over 6850 yards that only 0.01% play.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2017, 05:34:03 PM »
Autonomous maintenance. No course needs more than two people on staff. One to program the robots and another to maintain them. Every task can be performed during nongolfing hours mostly at night. Bring silence back.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 05:39:39 PM »
No need for maintenance, water, fertilizer for first 50+ yards off every tee.  Let it go brown.  If someone hits into it, they'll be happy that it will probably bounce out.

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2017, 05:48:04 PM »
Cut down on water usage on the course. Additionally, this may seem obvious, but keep an eye on other utility expenses. I had a General Manager tell me recently he was able to cut the club's electric bill in half by turning off lights in rooms that weren't being used. HALF!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 06:01:44 PM »
Cut down on water usage on the course. Additionally, this may seem obvious, but keep an eye on other utility expenses. I had a General Manager tell me recently he was able to cut the club's electric bill in half by turning off lights in rooms that weren't being used. HALF!


Wow!!! How much was he paid to figure that out? Only another $110,000 and he will earn his salary. If you want to save real money start at the top.

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 06:05:25 PM »
Cut down on water usage on the course. Additionally, this may seem obvious, but keep an eye on other utility expenses. I had a General Manager tell me recently he was able to cut the club's electric bill in half by turning off lights in rooms that weren't being used. HALF!

Wow!!! How much was he paid to figure that out? Only another $110,000 and he will earn his salary. If you want to save real money start at the top.


John, like I said, it sounds obvious, but you may be surprised how many clubs just neglect things like this and then bemoan the size of their bills...

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 06:27:01 PM »

Name me 5 things that can be eliminate to reduce the cost of golf at most courses without affecting it or perhaps even saving dollars.. 

So many things are constantly added to the game by the industry as needs and yet they often cost the individual course while making money for the industry vendor. 

1.  World Golf Foundation
2.  National Golf Foundation
3.  1/4 inch height of cut on teeing areas
4.  GPS Systems in golf cars
5.  Handicap System
6.  Premium golf ball such as Pro V


Mike,


lists that go on longer than they should ;D


You just need one thing added and that is an understanding of the concept of value for money.


Too many people expect high standards at low prices and too many people are willing to pay idiot prices to play.


Jon

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 06:34:12 PM »
How are the people willing to spend ridiculous prices to play a problem? 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 06:35:56 PM »

Cut down on water usage on the course. Additionally, this may seem obvious, but keep an eye on other utility expenses. I had a General Manager tell me recently he was able to cut the club's electric bill in half by turning off lights in rooms that weren't being used. HALF!


Wow!!! How much was he paid to figure that out? Only another $110,000 and he will earn his salary. If you want to save real money start at the top.


John,


Perhaps true, but I recall the results when management companies stocked golf courses with 25 year olds making $25,000 per year.  Not good.  Experience pays, but I do agree not all managers are anywhere near equal.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 06:43:11 PM »

Name me 5 things that can be eliminate to reduce the cost of golf at most courses without affecting it or perhaps even saving dollars.. 

So many things are constantly added to the game by the industry as needs and yet they often cost the individual course while making money for the industry vendor. 

1.  World Golf Foundation
2.  National Golf Foundation
3.  1/4 inch height of cut on teeing areas
4.  GPS Systems in golf cars
5.  Handicap System
6.  Premium golf ball such as Pro V


Mike,


As usual, you are probably more than a bit off in your efforts to be to golf what Scrooge is to Xmas.....


What is NGF membership for a course?  $1000?  Divided over 30,000 rounds, that is $0.03 per round, not significant.



Not sure about what WGF or USGA handicap costs are, but suspect they are the same ball park to any course using them.

1/4" is actually a pretty high cut for tees these days, certainly not out of line with current turf types.  And, probably same mower for collars and tees, so a different setting would probably cost money, not save.


Will agree on GPS in golf cars, although they are popular, may speed play, and the cost should be coming down.  Not sure what percentage of courses have them, but see no reason for some golf czar to outlaw them, as opposed to letting the free market determine whether or not they pay off for the courses that offer that.


Costco has apparently put a dent in the price of a premium ball, and there is no obligation for anyone to buy them.  Since that Consumer Report study showing the Nike Power Soft was 99% of their top Tiger branded ball, I haven't bought the ProV I or similar.  If others want to, it doesn't raise my cost to play golf.


A potentially good thread, but a lot of other examples are more to the reality of the point. ;)




Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 06:45:59 PM »
All the club managers where I play, both as a member and unaccompanied, are the best!!!


I just miss the days when the head pro decided what was best for the club. Give the head pro and the club champion a bottle of V.O. and figure things out.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 07:17:06 PM »
Not sure about what WGF or USGA handicap costs are, but suspect they are the same ball park to any course using them.
~$25/year, with juniors being free (GHIN). It's not much at all.

Will agree on GPS in golf cars, although they are popular, may speed play, and the cost should be coming down.  Not sure what percentage of courses have them, but see no reason for some golf czar to outlaw them, as opposed to letting the free market determine whether or not they pay off for the courses that offer that.
Also, courses may appreciate being able to monitor pace of play, keep carts out of certain areas, etc.

Costco has apparently put a dent in the price of a premium ball, and there is no obligation for anyone to buy them.
Costco didn't sell enough to put an actual dent in it, but companies like Snell are doing a bit to disrupt the premium golf ball business. Plus, this is something that consumers can choose to do or not, unlike the other things listed.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I ignore Rob and Tim.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2017, 09:25:04 PM »

Name me 5 things that can be eliminate to reduce the cost of golf at most courses without affecting it or perhaps even saving dollars.. 

So many things are constantly added to the game by the industry as needs and yet they often cost the individual course while making money for the industry vendor. 

1.  World Golf Foundation
2.  National Golf Foundation
3.  1/4 inch height of cut on teeing areas
4.  GPS Systems in golf cars
5.  Handicap System
6.  Premium golf ball such as Pro V


Mike,


As usual, you are probably more than a bit off in your efforts to be to golf what Scrooge is to Xmas.....
Maybe I'm off in your opinion but Itlking of things that are of no benefit and yet increase the cost to the individual courses


What is NGF membership for a course?  $1000?  Divided over 30,000 rounds, that is $0.03 per round, not significant.
I don't care what it cost a course...that's minute.  It does the game no good and look at the amount of money the various vendors donate to support such.  I thnk there will be a good study coming out soon on this...



Not sure about what WGF or USGA handicap costs are, but suspect they are the same ball park to any course using them.
Same goes for WGF as does the NGF....as for the handicap, the game can be played with or without it...individual games are usually figured by the group and only 3% of handicaps are used in USGA tourneys....

1/4" is actually a pretty high cut for tees these days, certainly not out of line with current turf types.  And, probably same mower for collars and tees, so a different setting would probably cost money, not save.  Call 1/4 inch high if you wish...maybe it is but it doesn't need to be under 1/2 inch...


Will agree on GPS in golf cars, although they are popular, may speed play, and the cost should be coming down.  Not sure what percentage of courses have them, but see no reason for some golf czar to outlaw them, as opposed to letting the free market determine whether or not they pay off for the courses that offer that. I'm not arguing if they are good or not...I'm saying they increase the cost for the player and the course...and genrate reveues for the vendor


Costco has apparently put a dent in the price of a premium ball, and there is no obligation for anyone to buy them.  Since that Consumer Report study showing the Nike Power Soft was 99% of their top Tiger branded ball, I haven't bought the ProV I or similar.  If others want to, it doesn't raise my cost to play golf. I'm saying the Chrome soft and some of the lower priced balls from srixon and others play as well for 99.5 percent of the golfers out there but marketing has it where many high handicappers play the premium ball even when not forced to buy such...


A potentially good thread, but a lot of other examples are more to the reality of the point. ;)  I'm sure there are several 100 examples that do nothing to improve the game for the golfer and yet come to be expected and cost the individual courses which have to pass it on ....  it has become an industry built on the back of the individual courses who cannot pass on the cost....unlike most industries where the cost have to fall in line...

some more...

-souped up irrigation in the name of saving water...
- hyped bunker maintenance when less than 5 percent of a 95 shooter shots are played form sand.
- most cart path
- lightweight fairway mowing and attributed cost

Oh well...

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 11:22:31 PM »
Cart Paths
Tight irrigation spacing
Perched greens in the south
Perfect bunkers
Golf Organizations


JB
It isn't the cost of the golf organizations, it is the cost of their influence
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 02:53:05 AM »
Any course yardage over 6850 yards that only 0.01% play.


I declare victory !  /s


Next I will work on the idea that tee mowers could be the same mowers for fairways, instead of the ones for collars.




Mike:


You forgot blowing leaves off the cart paths.  And, the PGA Tour.


Also, maybe, the turf schools.  Maybe the research they do has a place.  But I think that superintendents, like architects, should learn via apprenticeship; and if they did, they wouldn't be taught to pump up the budget so they could make more $.  I was really upset when I heard that in a formal lecture the first time I went to speak at a turf program.


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2017, 03:45:20 AM »

How are the people willing to spend ridiculous prices to play a problem?


Because it pushes the cost up and so decreases the number of people willing to pay it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 04:47:51 AM »
Carts paths is high on my list, but I wonder if in the long run no paths may mean more expensive golf because of fewer courses and fewer golfers. 

Less bunkering

Shorter courses

Fewer tees

Less water and feed

Higher cut for fairways

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Portpatrick & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 07:30:07 AM »
- The negative influence of public figures who make golf seem like an unreachably expensive and grossly elitist pursuit to non-golfers
- The stigma against buying used golf clubs, especially for beginners; you could build a full and very decent set of clubs for a beginner on eBay for $200 or less, easily
- Rules against walking before a certain time of the day
Senior Writer, GolfPass

JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 07:37:27 AM »
Any course yardage over 6850 yards that only 0.01% play.
[size=78%]Also, maybe, the turf schools.  Maybe the research they do has a place.  But I think that superintendents, like architects, should learn via apprenticeship; and if they did, they wouldn't be taught to pump up the budget so they could make more $.  I was really upset when I heard that in a formal lecture the first time I went to speak at a turf program.[/size]



Apologies as this wonít add to the specifics of this thread.


Tom,


I have a handful of colleagues that are Superintendents that never sat in a college classroom. It certainly isnít the norm, but it does happen.


I only speak for me. I was never taught to pump up a budget as a means to inflate my pocket. On the contrary, I was taught to do more with less, which has served me quite well throughout my career.


Cheers


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 07:45:36 AM »


Apologies as this wonít add to the specifics of this thread.


Tom,


I have a handful of colleagues that are Superintendents that never sat in a college classroom. It certainly isnít the norm, but it does happen.


I only speak for me. I was never taught to pump up a budget as a means to inflate my pocket. On the contrary, I was taught to do more with less, which has served me quite well throughout my career.


Cheers

John H,
That's good you were taught that way.  But haven't you seen what TD is speaking of?  I have heard it spoken almost word for word that it is critical to work for more "budget" ... 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 08:03:13 AM »
Name me 5 things that can be eliminate to reduce the cost of golf at most courses without affecting it or perhaps even saving dollars.. 


Eliminate heat and air in the house. Just eliminate the building. Kiosks work in other businesses such as self storage.


No Land line / internet. One cell phone for the owner operator.


No Pavement in lot or on the course. Crushed stone is fine.


Lobby local tax assessor for a reduction in appraised value of the course.


Work. All the time.


Will this help? Who knows? Is the NGF really the evil empire? Asking for a friend.





JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 08:17:32 AM »


Apologies as this wonít add to the specifics of this thread.


Tom,


I have a handful of colleagues that are Superintendents that never sat in a college classroom. It certainly isnít the norm, but it does happen.


I only speak for me. I was never taught to pump up a budget as a means to inflate my pocket. On the contrary, I was taught to do more with less, which has served me quite well throughout my career.


Cheers

John H,
That's good you were taught that way.  But haven't you seen what TD is speaking of?  I have heard it spoken almost word for word that it is critical to work for more "budget" ...


Mike,


Yes, I have. Iíll leave it at that. I was merely pointing out (which Iím sure Tom is aware) it was not always taught that way. Not in my specific instance, anyway, which was nearer 25 years ago.




Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 09:31:31 AM »
Carts included in the greens fees. If carts where an ala carte item I believe that more people would walk and preserve the turf. I also believe that the cost of the round of golf could remain the same and cart fees could be an added source of revenue and there might be a need for fewer carts to be leased or purchased.
Caveat, I am a walker and not much enamored with carts in the first place.


@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

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