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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #250 on: February 09, 2020, 07:28:04 AM »
It strikes me that team sports are actually struggling more than individual pursuits. The growth areas in sport are cycling and park runs.


People don’t seems to feel the need to “join” things so much these days.


There is sadly also a lot of truth in Adrian’s comment. Junior sport relies on volunteer coaches, referees, and organisers. In today’s world fewer are prepared to get involved.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 07:34:15 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Tim Martin

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #251 on: February 09, 2020, 07:36:51 AM »
It strikes me that team sports are actually struggling more than individual pursuits. The growth areas in sport are cycling and park runs.


People don’t seems to feel the need to “join” things so much these days.


There is sadly also a lot of truth in Adrian’s comment. Junior sport relies on volunteer coaches, referees, and organisers. In today’s world fewer are prepared to get involved.


Running in the park is considered a sport?

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #252 on: February 09, 2020, 08:22:38 AM »
Running in the park is considered a sport?


Hell, snooker and darts are considered sports by many!  🤣

Kalen Braley

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #253 on: February 09, 2020, 12:00:02 PM »
Before you judge the current generation too harshly, try to put yourself in thier shoes.

Go wander around outside or engage in one of the nearly countless technological diversions?

I too was a kid before Cable TV, Internet, and Computer games and it was a constant search to find something to keep you occupied, because staying home with Mom and staring at the ceiling was only gonna get you chores and the like.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #254 on: February 09, 2020, 12:11:21 PM »
Before you judge the current generation too harshly, try to put yourself in thier shoes.

Go wander around outside or engage in one of the nearly countless technological diversions?

I too was a kid before Cable TV, Internet, and Computer games and it was a constant search to find something to keep you occupied, because staying home with Mom and staring at the ceiling was only gonna get you chores and the like.



For kids here in the UK they have been effectively banned from outdoor activity by the parents of our generation. They cannot play out in the streets because house owners use it as a carpark. Where as we were thrown out of the house in the morning and not expected home until dinner most modern kids are not even allowed out in the garden alone 'just in case'. Sport is no long street cricket of pullover football but rather an organised event where people taxi their children to and from it. Even that quintessential childhood right of walking to and from school is no more as the way is not safe because of all the traffic from the school run.


Kids don't have a childhood as we know it any more. One thing that clubs can do however is make playing at their coursea family activity.


Jon


Mark Pearce

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #255 on: February 09, 2020, 01:37:06 PM »
Having managed junior cricket teams and captained an Academy side in recent years, some 25 years after running the juniors at a National League hockey club it's the hassle of being CRB checked, rather than the parents which was the issue.  It's just such a faff.  But getting kids to turn out when there are so many distractions and when they have such a sense of entitlement is a real problem.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #256 on: February 09, 2020, 02:01:29 PM »

Mark,


I agree with the CRB. I have one for the PGA work I do, a second one for Scottish Athletics as a running group leader, then a third for Athletics again for junior coaching. They are in effect the same check of which two are for the same organisation which are to do with the same junior runners. Each one takes time and money to get done. It is just utter madness.


As for the sense of entitlement. I wonder if it is more to do with the fact that kids today are not allowed to get on with their own lives. No walking to school but rather driven by mummy or daddy. No playing out as a group where you have to decide what to do, where and how as well. No amusing yourself with everything being laid on. The entitlement you speak of is not of the kids making but of our generation. We are to blame.

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #257 on: March 20, 2020, 09:24:05 PM »
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/new-figures-reveal-full-extent-of-glasgows-muni-problem



Investigation sheds new light on Glasgow munis' problems
By Michael McEwan — 20 March, 2020


The number of rounds played on Glasgow’s six council-operated courses fell sharply in the last year – but so too did the investment into the upkeep of the facilities by the local authority.


A bunkered.co.uk investigation has found that between 1 April 2017 and 31 March 2018, the rounds played across the courses – Linn Park, Lethamhill, Littlehill, Knightswood, Ruchill and Alexandra Park – totalled 28,983.


Over the following 12 months, that number fell to 23,207, a reduction of 5,778 rounds and a year-on-year drop of 19.9%.


However, those figures align closely with a decrease in investment by Glasgow City Council in the facilities.


Again, between 1 April 2017 and 31 March 2018, the total expenditure by the local authority in the six courses came to £1,545,636. Within 12 months, that had fallen by over £200,000 to £1,336,514 – a decrease of 13.5% year on year.


Our discoveries come just weeks after the approval of a new budget for the council threw the future of the six courses into fresh doubt.


Whilst no formal announcement has been made, bunkered.co.uk understands that there are plans afoot within the City Chambers for only one of the six courses, the nine-hole Knightswood, to remain under in local government control through the Glasgow Life management subsidiary.


The fate of the other five courses is uncertain, with the very real possibility that all will close or be repurposed if they cannot be sold as going concerns.


The council’s interest in retaining Knightswood is quite obvious. Of the six courses, it enjoys comfortably the most rounds. Indeed, it was the only one that saw an increase in rounds played from 2017-18 to 2018-19, going from 8,745 to 8,900 – an increase of 1.8%. The five other courses under the authority’s control all saw double-digit, year-on-year percentage decreases, most notably Ruchill, where the rounds played more than halved in just 12 months. They fell from 694 to 322.[size=78%] [/size]


As a nine-hole course, Knightswood also occupies a smaller site and, as a consequence, requires less investment than the council’s 18-hole courses: Linn Park, Lethamhill and Littlehill.


For the 2018-19 period, Knightswood cost the authority £182,372. Linn Park required investment of £266,091, with Littlehill and Lethamhill supported to the tune of £294,204 and £300,575.








Even so, the money spent on Knightswood was markedly less than the investment in the facility during the preceding 12 months, down by 18.8% from £224,724.


A source we spoke to, who declined to be named, said: “Throughout last year’s public consultation into the future of these courses, Glasgow City Council and Glasgow Life maintained that the review was necessary because of ‘low usage figures combined with a substantial annual deficit’.


“What they neglected to tell us was the extent to which they had cut their own investment into the maintenance and upkeep of these facilities.


"The similarity between the percentage decrease in rounds played and the percentage decrease in investment tells a very compelling story - if you reduce your investment in public provisions, is it not reasonable to assume that you will reduce their appeal?


“In this instance, it would seem that, rather than the city’s golfers, it is the city council that has been the architect of these courses expected downfall.”


Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #258 on: March 20, 2020, 10:59:25 PM »
Even the most fervent supporter of municipal golf would struggle to make a convincing argument for keeping these courses open.


The best used course has a cost per round played of well over £20. The least used has a cost per round played of £444!


This represents appalling value for money for the Glaswegian council tax payer.


If private operators cannot be found to run the courses at zero cost to the council they must surely close.

Niall C

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #259 on: March 23, 2020, 06:42:32 AM »
Duncan

When it comes to public sports and museums in Glasgow, golf is but a small part of the empire. With cuts and less money to go round something has to give. Consider also that the Council took the decision many years ago not to charge to get into any of the many museums that it has, and that one of them is currently getting a £60m makeover and it is clear where priorities lie.

That said, it is hard to gauge how many rounds are played when the courses often aren’t manned ! Last year I played Littlehill at 4pm on a midweek summers afternoon and the clubhouse was closed. There was no-one to collect money and I changed in the car park. The course was by no means full but it wasn’t empty either.

I was a little luckier at Lethamhill as I went along at a weekend but again I had to go hunting for someone to issue me a ticket and take my money. (no honesty boxes in Glasgow !) The cost of a round of 18 holes was £12.

I had 2 or 3 goes at trying to play Ruchill but it is securely fenced and access is via a small clubhouse and each time I went it was closed.

Again at Alexandria Park, there was no one there to take money or issue tickets and that was during the day on a summer weekend, so I had a pleasant enough go at the 9 hole course.

I didn’t have any trouble at Knightswood which is the course that is earmarked to stay open. The old clubhouse has been shut down and new temporary cabins provided on the other side of the course with the holes re-numbered. From memory the cost was £7 for the nine hole course. However what the Bunker report doesn’t explain is that the reason for the relocated clubhouse and the fact that it is manned, is that it also serves the new and adjacent BMX park. That is basically why Knightswood is the one that will be retained by the Council.

So to summarise, I attempted to play 5 courses, failed to do so with one of them after several attempts, and didn’t pay for two of the other four. Is it any wonder they are struggling ?

Niall

Lou_Duran

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #260 on: March 23, 2020, 05:05:27 PM »
And you want the government to take over all public transportation and energy in Scotland?  Maybe the government should do long term contracts for nominal monetary consideration with operators such as Jon, providing incentives based on rounds, green fees, and improvements to the courses.  I don't know your country's labor laws, but perhaps such a scheme would require some exemptions.

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #261 on: April 25, 2020, 03:40:16 AM »
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/golf-clubs-fear-worst-in-brutal-situation-of-lockdown-gg5zbkchq



Golf clubs fear worst in ‘brutal situation’ of lockdown
Graham Spiers
Saturday April 25 2020


The crisis looming for Scottish golf clubs is already rearing its ugly head: courses shut, no money coming in, cashflow in abeyance.


With clubs already going out of business across the country, the Covid-19 crisis might only hasten the end for others.


Asked yesterday if he envisaged fatalities, in terms of club closures, David Roy, general manager of the Crail Golfing Society, said: “It will be hugely surprising to me if there aren’t.”


Roy knows he is in quite a privileged position. Golf at Crail has thrived, in a gorgeous Fife setting, with 1,800 members and cash reserves. This well-run club has been able to adjust to the pandemic, but others will not be so fortunate.


“This is a living nightmare for golf clubs less fortunate than ourselves,” Roy said. “Many of them don’t have cash reserves, they were already limping along, just trying to balance their books. And now this [the pandemic] happens, with no-one coming to play their course. These clubs have had the rug pulled from under them and there is no safety net.


“These clubs might have 300 members, a secretary, some greenkeeping staff to pay, maybe some bar staff. But there’s no money: no-one is playing golf or eating in their clubhouse. And if you want to use the government’s furlough scheme, you have to keep paying your staff to get your money back. So you need to have the cash now. It is a brutal situation.”


All across Scotland golf clubs have feared their end. Malcolm Murray, the pro at Brora, openly wondered on Twitter if his club would survive, and has aided Brora’s social-media drive to boost funds. Peebles is already projecting a £50,000-plus loss on visitor income. At Durness, on the very north shelf of the country, they have launched a public appeal. “We are not begging for money but a few new members would certainly help us,” Alistair Morrison, their greenkeeper, said.


Other clubs, like Craigielaw in east Lothian, are desperate to attract new members, and hoping that existing members renew their subs, at a very time when they can offer no golf.


Nor is it just your average club which is suffering. The so-called richer “resort courses” also face a horrendous situation. Courses like Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns, rightly lauded for their beauty, are heavily reliant on visitor income, but hundreds of thousands of pounds this spring and summer will simply disappear. Dumbarnie Links, a fabulous new resort above Lower Largo, could not have chosen a more disastrous time to open next month.


One figure in the Scottish golf industry told me yesterday: “People tend to think of places like Castle Stuart as upmarket and well-heeled and almost immune from the situation. But I’d say, far from it. These resort courses could be facing a hell of a problem with this pandemic. They need the — mainly American — visitor market.”


Nairn, also renowned for its quality and beauty, has just spent a vast sum on course redevelopment over the past 18 months: would the club have done so had they known the pandemic was looming? Even Royal Dornoch, a world-famous attraction, is having to think carefully about its proposed new £5 million clubhouse.


For any golf visitor to the north of Scotland, the Dornoch-Golspie-Brora necklace is an unmissable delight. But Golspie, too, is facing its challenges. The club gathers £55,000 per year in membership fees but, more critically, around £100,000 a year in visitor income. Much of the latter, in the coming months, will be lost.


“It’s very tough,” Alasdair MacDougall, the volunteer treasurer at Golspie, said. “What we are looking at is a whole summer, and now maybe a whole season, of lost visitor income. Psychologically, I think many golf clubs are sort of writing off this year.


“In the main our members have been very supportive, very decent about it. I think we will be OK. I hope, we will survive. We had £100,000 in the bank at the start of the year, and we did hope that sum might help us through the next 20 years. But that is now unlikely.”


With the vague hope that golfers might be able to get out playing again by mid-summer — but with social-distancing rules still applying — Roy envisages a further, dire dilemma for clubs.


“You could have certain rules maybe being relaxed, where golfers can return to the course,” he said. “But it will probably be: no pro shop open, no clubhouse open, no touching of flagpoles etc, so that will almost certainly mean no visitors. This could be a long haul for many clubs, and very damaging. I fear for some of my fellow clubs.”

Mark Pearce

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #262 on: April 25, 2020, 06:04:30 AM »
The use of the word "fatalities" in the context of that article is, at best, unfortunate.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #263 on: April 26, 2020, 05:24:14 PM »
The courses that depend on overseas visitors are really going to be hit as there will be zero of that in 2020 and possibly zero, or very little, in 2021.  Even 2022 might be slow depending on how long it takes for a vaccine to be distributed and people decide to come back to overseas travel.  Once it does return there should be some pent up demand, assuming that anyone still has any money left, so hopefully the courses can hang on.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #264 on: April 27, 2020, 03:21:33 AM »

There was an interview on BBC Radio Scotland yesterday with Eleanor Cannon and she came across really badly. No comment on the lack of progress in the last two years. She lamented that the Scottish Golf organisation was suffering financially because clubs were not passing on the fees they should. She also refused to answer any questions about why they were trying to find the fourth chief executive during the time she has been the chair or why not only had the chief executive had left but also a further two key personnel had resigned.


It is plain to see why there is such disarray.

JJShanley

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #265 on: April 28, 2020, 06:45:37 AM »
https://www.golfshake.com/news/view/15024/How_to_Turn_Unattached_Golfers_Into_Golf_Club_Members.html
This article, which I assume includes the UK as a whole rather than just Scotland, came up on my Google recommendations a few days ago. It seems to suggest that golfers viewing themselves as customers, rather than as members, is the way forward. I'm not convinced by that in the long run (or even really in the short term) even if that phenomenon has grown.


The saddest part, I suppose was the following quotation:


"It's massively a cultural thing with a lot of people. I love golf but look round any clubhouse and 90% are 60+, this is a real turn off for joining. Who wants to hang out at multiple events with their parents/grandparents. I don't know how you change this."


Speaking as someone who lost his father a little over a year ago and who would have loved at least one father-son golf vacation (Dad's chronic ill health since the 1990s prevented that), I find this idea quite foreign. My own experience of golf in Scotland and the U.S., while no means extensive, has suggested that among other things (1) golf clubs actually need the interaction of folks of different ages to survive and that (2) it's actually a very healthy thing for all involved and often a thing not found in many places.


My anecdotal cherry picking of this quotation from a website I'd never heard of before Monday doesn't mean that person in question won't shift in their opinion of different generations in due course, but it doesn't strike me as very clubbable.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #266 on: April 28, 2020, 08:30:33 AM »
Ms Cannon seems to have been receiving a good bit of criticism but am I correct in believing that she's a non-paid Chair/official rather than an SGU paid employee?
atb

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #267 on: April 28, 2020, 09:07:12 AM »
I do not believe she gets an official 'wage' but as far as I am aware there is an honorar, expenses and various other perks so I wouldn't worry about her finances. Even if she was doing it for nothing it does not counter the way it is been done.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #268 on: April 28, 2020, 10:22:11 AM »

There was an interview on BBC Radio Scotland yesterday with Eleanor Cannon and she came across really badly. No comment on the lack of progress in the last two years. She lamented that the Scottish Golf organisation was suffering financially because clubs were not passing on the fees they should. She also refused to answer any questions about why they were trying to find the fourth chief executive during the time she has been the chair or why not only had the chief executive had left but also a further two key personnel had resigned.


It is plain to see why there is such disarray.
Did you pass your fees on or did you decide to keep them in your pocket? Asking for a friend.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #269 on: April 28, 2020, 10:34:03 AM »
Did you pass your fees on or did you decide to keep them in your pocket? Asking for a friend.


A bit below the belt, Adrian.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 11:09:10 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #270 on: April 28, 2020, 12:39:28 PM »

There was an interview on BBC Radio Scotland yesterday with Eleanor Cannon and she came across really badly. No comment on the lack of progress in the last two years. She lamented that the Scottish Golf organisation was suffering financially because clubs were not passing on the fees they should. She also refused to answer any questions about why they were trying to find the fourth chief executive during the time she has been the chair or why not only had the chief executive had left but also a further two key personnel had resigned.



It is plain to see why there is such disarray.

Did you pass your fees on or did you decide to keep them in your pocket? Asking for a friend.



Adrian,



To answer your 'friend's question' ::) When I approached Scottish Golf about being affiliated I was told as a non member's club why would I want to and that there was no voluntary system. They didn't need the money nor want it.


Did the meeting with the sports minister go well. Were you able to get a go ahead for competitive golf at clubs (obviously no spectators)? Oh, and of course for fishing to. I ask for myself as none of my friends give a toss about what you are doing  ;D

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #271 on: April 29, 2020, 04:35:39 AM »
Jon


There was meant to be an annoucement on Monday gone but it did not happen. Monday May 11th is the date I heard for golf to recommence of golf for England, I have also heard 15th May. Fishing will be the same time along with Bowls and I think Tennis.


Confirmed that if you live or work on a golf course you can play on it.


They cited (after 3 days) that golf is currently not to be played in England under Section 2 schedule of the Covid 19 legislation passed 26th march.(i think)


Social golf only of course with safe distancing.


Are you likely to be making any announcements about your plans for 2020 or 2021?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #272 on: April 29, 2020, 02:06:44 PM »
Jon


There was meant to be an annoucement on Monday gone but it did not happen. Monday May 11th is the date I heard for golf to recommence of golf for England, I have also heard 15th May. Fishing will be the same time along with Bowls and I think Tennis.





Confirmed that if you live or work on a golf course you can play on it.


They cited (after 3 days) that golf is currently not to be played in England under Section 2 schedule of the Covid 19 legislation passed 26th march.(i think)


Social golf only of course with safe distancing.


Are you likely to be making any announcements about your plans for 2020 or 2021?



I haven't heard any date for Scotland (or England for that matter) but may find out more tomorrow when I partake in the PGA's web-meeting on how golf may go forward. I suspect it will be left to clubs to decide on the size of playing groups but would imagine that copious signing around the course reminding players about social distancing.


I suspect that allowance to play on a golf course is as I mentioned last week to do with ownership and possibly employment though it would be a brave member's club who let the greenkeepers play whilst telling the members they cannot. I would also imagine that if like yourself you are the owner of the club and also live on site then you're fine to play but if you just happen to live in a property that is within the golf course complex then you might not be able to.


As for my course I am in a fortunate position of being a committee of one with a course that has a season of mid April to the end of October. As such I took the decision at the start of this month to put sheep on to the course as a way of bringing in some money and go with planning of there being no golf this year. I am maintain the greens, surrounds and tees but nothing else for the moment. If the opportunity arises I will open up for golfers but at a reduced rate.


I have seen most of my season ticket holders already this spring as most have been coming up once a week for a walk across the course and a chat (at 2 meters distance of course.) I will decide on 2021 when we get there but will leave all options open. All this extra time does give more time to process firewood for next year and rebuild the dry stone wall along the southern boundary.

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #273 on: May 15, 2020, 03:44:54 AM »
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/king-james-vi-golf-club-22021299



King James VI Golf Club taken aback by crowdfunding page generosity
By Matthew Gallagher
14 MAY 2020





The togetherness and spirit shown to fight back against the coronavirus crisis has been heartening for all associated with King James VI Golf Club.


These are tough times for courses across the country with fairways remaining eerily quiet and clubhouse bars absent of cheery - or not so cheery - golfers dissecting their performance.


While the closure of clubs in Scotland has brought unavoidable financial concerns, those with a passion for the game are clubbing together more than ever before.


That is certainly the case at the historic and much-loved King James VI whose successful introduction of a crowdfunding page has left committee members bursting with pride.


The ‘Keeping King Jimmy’ page was started to help alleviate the loss of income and, within 24 hours, more than £4000 had been raised.


Club captain David Angus was taken aback by the generosity and is full of belief that the club will come through this challenging situation stronger.


“Year to year we wash our faces and not much more, to be honest,” Mr Angus said. “We are not rich in reserves, but the history is rich and the membership a tight bunch.


“You don’t know what everyone’s situation is. People may have lost their jobs or will not be getting paid the same. So is it fair to ask them to dip into their pockets?


“We thought the best thing to do was for people to give us what they think they can.


“I’m really buoyant and encouraged by the support we have been getting and the positive messages from the membership about what we are doing.


“We have a website up and running on crowdfunding called Keeping King Jimmy. We started it on Tuesday morning and had a few members putting money in beforehand.


“We were at £1000 when it opened and by Tuesday night at 9pm we had reached more than £4000. Hopefully that figure will keep moving up nicely.


“Everyone has been commenting saying how they feel proud to be part of King James VI.”


An army of volunteers have also been quick to chip in with any required maintenance to keep the course looking fresh, all completed in line with government guidelines.


“There is nothing pretentious about us as a club,” Mr Angus continued. “We are honest, love our golf but also like to socialise. The membership is really close.


“When we first started calling for volunteers people kept coming back to put themselves forward.


“We asked for volunteers to look at the bunkers because they were becoming really weedy.


"There has been great spirit shown, really positive stuff.  When you walk down to the club, it’s looking fresh and nice.”


The playing of golf has resumed in England but, north of the border, clubs continue to wait patiently for the green light.


Mr Angus said: “It’s a pity we can’t get any golf played at the minute, but I think we’re maybe two or three weeks away from that.


“We have a plan in place. It will be going out in twos and you won’t be able to just rock up and play. It will be members only to begin with.


“As soon as we feel we’re safe to handle what we’re being asked to do by the government, we’ll be open and be ready to play golf.


“We will come through this a lot stronger and more together than we’ve ever been before. And we will celebrate that when we get back, I can assure you.”


Visit www.crowdfunder.co.uk/keeping-king-jimmy to donate.  In total, more than £7000 has already been donated.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golf in Scotland is sinking fast
« Reply #274 on: May 15, 2020, 07:56:05 AM »
Crowdfunding and donations and the like brings up another related issue ... membership subscription levels.
Say a Club through the generosity of others (ie non-members) raises £20,000 and say the Club has 400 members.
That £20,000 is the equivalent of £50 per member, or £1 per member per week for a year, which doesn't seem a lot.
Seems like something maybe isn't right with the basis behind the Club subscription levels if this kind of outside funding is required. Even, in the above example, if the Club only had 200 members then £20,000 is only £2 per member per week, which still isn't much.
Just saying.
atb

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