[Duncan Cheslett]

As an American looking at UK yearly member fees, which are lower by a multiple of 10 or more for nicer clubs, how much lower can they get?  If people aren't playing golf because they want lower priced golf, is it even realistic to run a club on such a small amount of membership funds? Inflation typically is ....... upwards, so golf fees should go in the same direction.

The bulk of UK clubs manage to survive on 300 or so members paying between £750 and £1000 per year for unlimited golf. They do this by keeping course maintenance costs down to maybe £100-150k employing perhaps 3-4 full time greens staff. Fortunately our climate is such that irrigation is seldom an issue. Drainage however, certainly is!


Most such clubs rely on volunteer labour from members to help with the upkeep of the course and with woodland management.


It is a hand to mouth existence for most clubs. As membership overall declines clubs feel themselves forced to chase green fee income from visitors at ever lower rates. This in turn feeds the decline in membership overall as infrequent golfers get better value for money and more variety by not being aligned to a particular club. So the downward spiral continues.

I used to think that the most fashionable or elite clubs in each locality were immune to this phenomenon. It seems not. In my area clubs which have always had a closed waiting list, a hefty joining fee and have historically been the habitat of the local great and good are now advertising membership deals on Facebook to all comers.


My wife has just joined the poshest club in our area (a nice Colt course) largely because it is only two minutes from home. 800 quid a year payable in monthly installments and no joining fee. It's no more expensive than the perfectly pleasant but undistinguished and boggy tree-lined "parkland" she was playing at on the other side of town.


What future is there for such courses?

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,


they will have to create and maintain a good club feel that people want to be part of. It was this that kept many a club going in the pre 90's boom but many clubs have simply forgotten it.

[Jeff Schley]

The reason mainly is there are attractive cost saving options elsewhere by paying and playing. Lowest price is the key driver.

As an American looking at UK yearly member fees, which are lower by a multiple of 10 or more for nicer clubs, how much lower can they get?  If people aren't playing golf because they want lower priced golf, is it even realistic to run a club on such a small amount of membership funds? Inflation typically is ....... upwards, so golf fees should go in the same direction.

Jeff,


if the UK golf followed the US model it would be dead. Thankfully this is not the case.

Jon praise the lord for that indeed. What good comes from the yanks anyway right?

However, I have read participation (by member numbers) is down almost 10% in the last 5 years in the UK. The income statement/balance sheet at these clubs are probably shared with the membership, so unless there is some embezzlement happening the clubs are spending what they take in.  From what I have read it is falling short and clubs are in jeopardy, thus what is the answer?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Scotland saw a drop of 7,521 registered golfers, a 4% loss, between 2017-2018. There are now 180,281 golfers registered to Scottish golf clubs compared to 187,802 in 2017.


Ireland remained largely static, with just a 0.58% decline. The Emerald Isle lost 1,063 registered golfers to take its participation rate to 182,398 in 2018.

I find this surprising. That there are now more Club golfers in Ireland than Scotland.


Populations (Google)


Ireland   4.8m  350 (guesstimate?) courses.  This works out at 521 members per club
Scotland 5.5m  550 courses.    327 per club


I would look at why this is happening. This thread hasn't considered the bigger picture.  Ireland was hit particularity hard economically in 2008 and recently the economy has seen more of an upturn than Scotland and Wales's have. 


If you looked at the no of golf courses in each country. Generalising hugely,  Ireland have seen many new courses added in past  40 years. In contrast Scotland has seen much more limited net growth.


But more golfers in Ireland than Scotland.  Wow.

[Jon Wiggett]

The reason mainly is there are attractive cost saving options elsewhere by paying and playing. Lowest price is the key driver.

As an American looking at UK yearly member fees, which are lower by a multiple of 10 or more for nicer clubs, how much lower can they get?  If people aren't playing golf because they want lower priced golf, is it even realistic to run a club on such a small amount of membership funds? Inflation typically is ....... upwards, so golf fees should go in the same direction.

Jeff,


if the UK golf followed the US model it would be dead. Thankfully this is not the case.

Jon praise the lord for that indeed. What good comes from the yanks anyway right?

However, I have read participation (by member numbers) is down almost 10% in the last 5 years in the UK. The income statement/balance sheet at these clubs are probably shared with the membership, so unless there is some embezzlement happening the clubs are spending what they take in.  From what I have read it is falling short and clubs are in jeopardy, thus what is the answer?

Jeff,


no slight against the 'yanks' was intended nor made. I just pointed out that the US model would be unsustainable in the UK. As to your question, I think you will find plenty of suggestions if you peruse this thread.

[Daryl David]

The US model depends on a population of affluent golfers that care a great deal about privacy, status and exclusivity.  It would seem the golfing population in U.K. doesn’t share that mindset. The US model keeps chugging along at those clubs that share those characteristics. Not saying that is good or bad. Just different.

[Bernie Bell]

Latest NGF data shows 20 million US golfers account for 95% of rounds played.  I would suggest that an infinitesimal percentage of those 20 million are "affluent golfers that care a great deal about privacy, status and exclusivity."  The muckety clubs are a US model, but are very far from the US model.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The US model depends on a population of affluent golfers that care a great deal about privacy, status and exclusivity.  It would seem the golfing population in U.K. doesn’t share that mindset. The US model keeps chugging along at those clubs that share those characteristics. Not saying that is good or bad. Just different.

The UK model is kinda based around the principle of two five handicappers competing in a team match. One of the 5 handicappers is a 49 year bank manager, his partner is a 15 year old school boy. The 15 year old boy is not thinking his partner earns £100k per year. The bank manager wishes he was as supple as his partner. It is that sort of integration the feeds the UK Model. Both are just thinking golf.


The traditional UK model has no barriers as such. The golf club is a collection of groups of mates. Wealthy members don't join the wealthy clubs because their mates can't afford it. Things were different 40 years ago. Some people joined the golf club so they could sell the charms to other members and played just twice a year.

[Kalen Braley]

Id be curious to know what the relative numbers are for US clubs and golfers compared to these ones for the UK.


Its not like courses and golfers aren't dropping like flies over here too.

[Brian_Ewen]

On the 31st of December, the 130 year old, Dollar Golf Club closed it's doors for the last time.


Never played it, but I think it was designed by Ben Sayers, and it was bunkerless.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The problem with Scotland is highlighted in these days of over supply.


Scotland priced its golf too cheap and there is little room to increase prices when others price low.


Sadly, this will continue to happen until the over supply is corrected but clubs will struggle on paying less employees, managers, pro-less, clubhouse-less.


Scotland is not just immune. The low price is common in the North of England.


Any club charging less than £20 for a game is a candidate to struggle, simple maths. You got to be very busy to make it work or next to zero staff and budget.

[Thomas Dai]

More and more these days I get the impression that even for £20 folks expect Augusta like conditioning year round and are disappointed, even won’t play, if they don’t get it.
Long gone the days of folks having only a few mis-matched clubs in a scruffy old bag with socks as head-covers and accepting course conditions as they come.
Atb

[Simon Holt]

Far from there being no problem, there will be some 2nd/3rd tier clubs that will hopefully do better in the coming years.  Waiting lists are being closed or becoming "unwaitable" at some clubs, albeit only the top end, which means keen golfers on lists will look elsewhere to bridge the gap while they wait for the bigger name club to let them in.  Coupled with the unfortunate closing of many clubs, those golfers will have to go elsewhere for their golf too. 


It's a correction that we know happens in all saturated markets, not just golf.  That doesn't make it any easier to swallow or mask the fact that golfer numbers are diminishing at what feels like a double digit rate, year on year.  There is not much any of us here can do on a personal level other than invite non-golfers to come for a game, or encourage former golfers to return the moment either of those groups show interest.

[Brian_Ewen]

More and more these days I get the impression that even for £20 folks expect Augusta like conditioning year round and are disappointed, even won’t play, if they don’t get it.
Long gone the days of folks having only a few mis-matched clubs in a scruffy old bag with socks as head-covers and accepting course conditions as they come.
Atb

Yep, TV coverage of the PGA Tour has a lot to answer for.

[Jon Wiggett]

More and more these days I get the impression that even for £20 folks expect Augusta like conditioning year round and are disappointed, even won’t play, if they don’t get it.
Long gone the days of folks having only a few mis-matched clubs in a scruffy old bag with socks as head-covers and accepting course conditions as they come.
Atb

Yep, TV coverage of the PGA Tour has a lot to answer for.

I disagree Brian. Whilst the top clubs have seen GF prices soar to stupid level middle tier clubs dumping the price of green fees way below what is sustainable has trashed both the GF revenue and membership value. Club's and the home unions are almost entirely responsible. If I play 25 rounds a year, why would I pay £1000 to be a member of a club that sells weekend green fees at £25?   

[Brian_Ewen]

Anyone paying attention, will know that I think Craigie Hill is one of the quirkiest courses in Scotland, and is a must play for lovers of quirk.


If you have not done already, then you have about 5 years 


http://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/01/scottish-club-to-convert-from-18-to-nine-holes-to-secure-its-future/



Scottish club to convert from 18 to nine holes to secure its future
Alistair Dunsmuir
January 8, 2020
A Scottish golf club will work towards creating a nine-hole golf course and will create a ‘transition fund’ to cover costs and debts, in a bid to secure its future.


Craigie Hill Golf Club near Perth, which dates back to 1911, says it will preserve the current 18-hole set-up and clubhouse facility for a period of up to five years.


“We’re delighted that the members have wholeheartedly supported the proposals to maintain the course in its current configuration for the next few years and allow the board to work towards the transition to the city’s first nine-hole course, complete with a new clubhouse, practice facilities and adjacent parking,” said club captain Crawford Conochie.


“The resounding vote provides much-needed security going forward as the board seeks to ensure the long-term viability of an historic golf club in the heart of the city.


“This is an exciting opportunity and ensures that Craigie Hill will survive as a golf club long into the future.


“Now we are confident of retaining current members and attracting new faces for the 2020 season, with membership fees of £490 and the Scottish Golf levy.


“The transition fund will be launched shortly, enabling us to retain control going forward.


“It is designed to generate £300,000, with members being given an opportunity to crowdfund a loan to the club, with the benefit of a guaranteed four per cent return on their investment.


“At an agreed date, our members will be able to commit £1,000 per unit, with their initial investment and interest locked in until our chosen development partner can successfully navigate the planning process.


“This safeguards the immediate future of the club and we can actively seek out a developer from a solid financial base.”


While several Scottish golf courses have folded recently, nine-hole tracks are proving increasingly popular with golfers struggling to commit the time required to get around 18 holes.


The club’s board believes a mostly flat par 34 / 68, south facing nine-hole course, with multiple tee options, will prove sustainable and offer value for money membership.

[Niall C]

Brian


Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It is a course that I've been meaning to play for a while and not just because I've driven by it hundreds of times and wondered at some of the holes as they play over and around the hill. I'm also interested because it's a Willie Fernie design which I assume hasn't been buggered about with.


Anyone else up for a gca clan outing to Craigie Hill in the spring ?


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

Brian


Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It is a course that I've been meaning to play for a while and not just because I've driven by it hundreds of times and wondered at some of the holes as they play over and around the hill. I'm also interested because it's a Willie Fernie design which I assume hasn't been buggered about with.


Anyone else up for a gca clan outing to Craigie Hill in the spring ?


Niall

Count me in. Fine and handy from the Office!
 
F.

[Michael Graham]

Sounds good Niall.

[Mark Pearce]

Count me in, too.

[Jon Wiggett]

I'm in too.

[Ari Techner]

I'm in also

[Duncan Cheslett]

If I can tie it in with a trip to see Dan and there is a lift available from Glasgow I'm in too! 

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/glasgow-tees-up-closure-of-five-golf-courses-lrktp2v75



Glasgow tees up closure of five golf courses
Charlie Parker
Wednesday January 29 2020


Golfers are concerned for the future of municipal courses after Glasgow said it planned to close five of its six clubs.


It is understood that the move could save £530,000, but it has not yet been finalised. Last year councillors in Dundee voted to close one of two public courses to save almost £400,000 in annual subsidies. In Edinburgh, council chiefs, who expect to have to find up to £40 million in savings from their budget for 2021-22, are considering a review of subsidies of six public courses.


Andrew McKinlay, the chief executive of Scottish Golf (SG), said that municipal courses were “the fabric of the grassroots game in Scotland”, adding: “In certain local authorities the municipal course finds itself as a direct competitor to [private] clubs offering discounted rates via third parties.”


Camperdown golf course in Dundee is due to close this year in a move that one opposition official described as “cultural vandalism”. The club has only 90 members, and the number of rounds played has fallen from 23,968 in 2009-2010 to 17,369 in 2018-19.


Five courses managed by Glasgow Life, the cultural and sporting arm of the city council, could also be closed to save money. Littlehill, Lethamhill, Linn Park, Ruchill and Alexandra Park courses are all under threat.


An official document has set out options to help the council to save a total of £50 million. It says that more than half a million pounds could be saved by closing all the public golf clubs apart from the nine holes at Knightswood.


Glasgow Life launched a public consultation over the “low usage” and “substantial annual deficit” in keeping the courses going.


David Doig, of the Lothians Golf Association, said that the other councils could soon follow Glasgow’s lead.


“The Braids golf course in Edinburgh, for example, went from two 18-hole golf courses to an 18 and a nine,” he said. “We’re concerned the golf courses are closing across Scotland and in the Lothian area as well.


“A few years ago we lost a couple of clubs through lack of members but a lot of the closure of the council courses is more about the lack of finances to keep them to a condition that they need them to be at. They’re public golf courses so there’s no membership allocation to them. They’re obviously not raking in enough money to keep their head above water.”


Mr McKinlay said that SG aimed to make the sport more attractive to younger people.


A spokesman for Glasgow council said: “We need to make budget savings which could be in the region of £50 million. The cross-party budget working group asked officers for savings options. All parties have received the same information and they will present their budgets at a meeting on February 20.”

[Brian_Ewen]

Littlehill, Lethamhill, Linn Park, Ruchill and Alexandra Park courses are all under threat.

Littlehill, thought highly enough to hold an Open Qualifier.

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