[Niall C]

Sean
 
I partially agree about economics however do we really have that more courses in Scotland than we did back in 1975 ? I’m sure we have but I don’t see it being a particularly big percentage increase. What would be interesting to find out are what are the relative costs in membership, in real terms, between 1975 and the present day.
 
I wonder how many clubs took on significant capital projects, mainly involving the clubhouse, over the period when times were good.  I’d bet that is having a bearing in terms of interest charges and ongoing running costs.
 
If you can reduce the cost, you increase the number of golfers willing to become members. That’s the basic economics the SGU should be focusing on.
 
Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

I wouldn't be surprised if there is at least a 10% increase of course supply since 1975.  Part of the blowback of that additional course supply was a more upscale model of clubs and maintenance.  It may seem modest looking at the quality of what was actually built, but in terms of cost the poor quality doesn't have much bearing other than higher maintenance bills.  So yes, reduced costs would help generate more market demand, but I am not convinced costs can be cut enough to create a demand to fill all the courses...especially given the fact that cost conscious golfers can easily get cheap golf without a membership commitment.  IMO, it really comes down to a market correction in  numbers of courses.  Golf clubs need to be in demand to remain robust and that means the best thing for clubs is when waiting lists exist and entry fees can be charged.  Sure, it knocks a decent percentage of marginal golfers to the kerb, but thats life.  Sometimes it a buyer market and sometimes its a seller market.  Right now non-choosy golfers have the power simply because of an over-supply in the market.  The issue is how do clubs make themselves stand out from the crowd so they can survive?  That is an individual club process and decision.  I guess we can hammer on SC to create more demand, but to be honest I see that happening mainly at mid to high level clubs via tourism.  The bottom feeders don't have this luxury because lts face it, there really is much to distinguish these courses...hence the race to the bottom with cheap visitor fees.  But I reiterate, Scotland is not sinking.  The game of golf is robust and will remain so. The landscape may change much like we see gentrification of city neighbourhoods, but that is how life rolls. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I agree with the view that people don't really give up the game of golf but they give up the aspect of membership in favour of pay and play. There is DATA linked with this and this is my finding.


We have several categories ranging from traditional one payment membership to a scheme where you pay £335 per year and then pay per round, £20 on our main course.... here are the problems.


1. The Member will only do what is exactly best for him at that time and that could mean changing categories several times as he plays more, gets injured, gets married, has more work to do, has a child that wants to go to the football.


2. As they downgrade they don't really like to play on consecutive days, too frequently, when it rains, if it might rain, when the course might be undergoing maintenance, in the cold....all because they now have to pay £20.


3. Because they don't play as often they hit bad shots, they score badly and the enjoyment factor is less....they are not so eager for the next game. The £335 and 6 games added up to £455 which registers an annoyance factor of nearly £80 a round. They now quit their low category in favour of just paying a green fee when they play, usually then at a sub-standard £20 course (or quite a good one if they scan teeofftimes/ GolfNow and grab the barter bargain of the day.


4. The pattern continues until they double hit chips, slice tee shots into the trees, hack their approaches into the lake and the enjoyment factor is reduced until the play so infrequently that golf may just be an annual game with the workpals, stag weekend  ect.


I have seen this happen hundreds of times. Someone who was playing 40 times a year at one stage  is playing 1-3 rounds per year within 3 or 4 years.


So the real key is to get more people playing more rounds, the total number of people that call themselves a golfer still has not altered too much.


Key target areas are the 40 year old ex footballer with 15 year old children less reliant on dad.


Sell the game on the basis that a 4 hour walk burns 1000 calories, equal to an hour in the gym and you can play a round of golf for the next 40 years and you are likely to live 5 years longer based on the muscle usage, exercise, positive mental aspects of competition.


The game itself needs to be 45 minutes quicker. The game itself can't vary too much from the way it is played, so larger 8 inch holes are not a great idea. 9 hole evening competitions could be encouraged. Rule change that treat every lost ball as a lateral. Rule change that forbids marking a line on the ball and/or a rule that you can only mark and clean the ball once on the green, no penalty for striking and opponents ball or flag. Only your opponent can ask you to mark the ball a second time if it is in his direct play.


The Culling of 20-25% of all golf courses in the UK would be healthy for the remaining 75-80%, as it stands 95% of clubs are struggling to make ends meet and many clubs vie for another's business often with ill informed decision makers that discount their product to such a price that membership makes no sense.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


by 'no hope' I was referring to your belief that a country wide solution did not exist not that golf had no hope. To be clear, my course is not a member of the SGU as they were not interested in acquiring new members (and fees) when I talked to them. I do agree with you about no solution in so far as with the current attitude of the SGU but I firmly believe there are things that could be done countrywide to improve the situation.


You are correct that the population has remained stable since 1975 increasing by just 15'000 since then though by 35'000 since 2000. However, many of the new courses are not member clubs and cater to the golfing tourist.


I think the experience you had with the SGU and their lack of selling the product or providing information kind of sums up where the problem lies. Were this to alter for the better then there would be the chance of finding a positive way forward. Alas, because they are not tied financially to sustaining the game the solution seems to be to up the fees rather than sell more product.


Jon

[John Kavanaugh]

The only reason golf survives in America is because of carts. Has Scotland considered introducing the electric savior?

[Lou_Duran]

One of many illuminating graphics Darling, the CEO of Vianet Group, a strategic insight and cloud based technology business, used to get his message across highlighted golf’s demographic being its biggest problem. Over 55s make up more than 100,000 of golf club members whereas 24 and unders provide just more than 10,000.

Scottish women have an average of about 1.5 babies each over their lifetime.  I believe the number needed to maintain population at its current level is around 2.1 children per woman.  i.e. demographics are probably going to make things much worse.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/news/2017/scotlands-population-is-increasing

The issue is primarily one of demographics, economics, and the political choices made in response.  When there are 800 more deaths than births and the population is growing only through immigration, the sport's authorities better hope that the newcomers are from a golfing culture (most unlikely).

Given human nature, adaptation is probably the only realistic option.  With many competing demands for funds, I think it is hard to argue for macro, top-down solutions.  Each individual club will likely have to map out its best course of action given the local realities it faces.

I do wonder how long the current model of charging substantially higher fees to visitors even at some non-descript courses will last.  At my home course, I've heard a lot of once-and-done comments from members about both Scotland and Ireland.  I find it astounding that guest fees at some clubs are as much as dues for three months. 

Barney's comments are only partially tongue-in-cheek.  Another source of revenues would be useful, and when visitors from the UK play here, they seem to be partial to the Club Car, beer cooler, and even a C&W playlist.

[Sean_A]

Sweet Lou

The clubs charging the sort of green fees you suggest are not struggling. Though I agree that eventually the well will run dryish for folks willing to pay the crazy green fees now demanded.  Or if this side of golf is sustained, it will be at the expense of club membership. 

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

Just as an aside as we have discussed bringing new players to the game in their 40s and 50s, I am watching the Golf Channel and Greg Norman is on and he was asked about his golf game.  His reply was that he played 5 times last year and maybe 8 times this year. He was then asked if he missed the game at all and his answer was a simple "no." Seems hard for most of us to understand how someone who could play the game so well would not have any interest in playing anymore.  I am sure we could give any number of reasons for this but it is still hard for us who have never played at a very high level and love the game could imagine giving the game up, and especially so if we could play it really well.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Just as an aside as we have discussed bringing new players to the game in their 40s and 50s, I am watching the Golf Channel and Greg Norman is on and he was asked about his golf game.  His reply was that he played 5 times last year and maybe 8 times this year. He was then asked if he missed the game at all and his answer was a simple "no." Seems hard for most of us to understand how someone who could play the game so well would not have any interest in playing anymore.  I am sure we could give any number of reasons for this but it is still hard for us who have never played at a very high level and love the game could imagine giving the game up, and especially so if we could play it really well.

The reason I expect is from the same thought pattern as the people I described as semi-quitting.....they don't enjoy it as much because they are not as good as they were and there is an annoyance factor hitting bad shots. There is another trending pattern that as soon as you are working or involved with golf, it is not the same sort relaxer that it was. For professional golfers there is a trending pattern as soon as they start designing courses the quality of their golf goes downhill, happened with Tiger although it is usual that golfpro designers design at the end of their careers.

[Duncan Cheslett]

This is one of the joys of taking up golf later in life.


At 57, my golf is improving all the time. I have not lost any distance - in fact I am gaining distance and consistency as my techique improves through tuition and practice. I see no reason why I shouldn't continue to lower my scores well into my 60s.

Most of my compatriots who have played the game for longer are seeing their abilities wane, causing much frustration. I feel lucky.


Incidentally,  our club manager attended a meeting of local clubs this week organised by England Golf. The main topic was increasing club membership overall and the main thrust of the keynote speech was selling the game to the over 40s.

Hallelujah!

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/martin-dempster-scottish-golf-in-mess-and-board-must-take-share-of-blame-1-4704474



Martin Dempster: Scottish Golf in mess and board must take share of blame
March 12th, 2018


There have been some lows for Scottish golf – some highs, too, admittedly – in the time I’ve covered this great sport but never before I have I felt the game in this country has been in the complete and utter mess it currently finds itself.


The failure by Scottish Golf to secure backing for a proposal to raise the affiliation fee paid by club members by £3.75 to £15 at Saturday’s annual general meeting has left the governing body in a dire situation, one that needs to be addressed here and now.


Let’s start by asking why the stakeholders – consisting of men’s Area and women’s County associations as well as the country’s near-600 clubs – rejected that proposal, the main purpose of which was to raise extra revenue to offset sportscotland funding having been slashed and allow Scottish Golf to push ahead with a plan to try to help clubs in the ongoing fight against declining members.


Was it really because rank-and-file golfers in the sport’s birthplace aren’t prepared to stump up an additional £3.75 – the cost of a single golf ball or a pint of beer or lager? For some, probably yes and that is entirely their prerogative.


I suspect, though, that the main reason for the “no” vote was that those involved at the sharp end of matters at grass-roots level have lost faith in Scottish Golf and, therefore, simply aren’t prepared to let Eleanor Cannon, the chair, and her board of non-executive directors to shape the game’s future in this country.


If so, why is that the case? Well, could it have been that, by all accounts, Scottish Golf’s numbers were just not adding up in the document sent to clubs outlining its battleplan and that, coupled with an apparent lack of real clarity about how clubs were actually going to be assisted, effectively triggered a red light.


What also didn’t help, of course, was that the governing body had initially proposed the affiliation fee being hiked up to £24, only for that to be swiftly withdrawn when it soon became dead in the water – along with hopes of introducing a golf tourism tax and the implementation of a customer relationship management (CRM) system.


Yes, they might all have been ideas tabled by Blane Dodds during his short spell as chief executive before he jumped ship to take up the same role at Tennis Scotland, but the board surely gave him their backing and that, I’m afraid, played a big part in the sorry mess that has now been created.


It was distressing to hear Cannon claim that sexism towards her was part of the reason the proposal failed. Equally embarrassing for everyone involved in the sport in this country was hearing Malcolm Robertson, an outgoing board member, saying that certain individuals should be “ashamed at some of their behaviour” towards her during this process. Seriously, that really is cringeworthy and totally unacceptable.


What matters now is that, somehow, Scottish Golf can pick itself up off the canvas and have a fighting chance of moving forward with any real strands of positivity, which isn’t going to be very easy when cuts of up to £450,000 will need to be made in the next 18 months on the back of savings of around £700,000 having already being implemented.


Can that happen with the current board pulling the strings and, more importantly, the bad atmosphere within the game that appears to have been created? The answer to that, I’m afraid, would appear to be “no” and I don’t make that prediction lightly.


I have no axe whatsoever to grind with Cannon and certainly respect her. I feel confident she took up the leadership role with the best intentions and, despite Saturday’s disappointment, is still talking bullishly about wanting to create a bright future for Scottish Golf and its members.


Truthfully, though, how can a board be successful in shaping a sport’s future when its members are not actually known by the people they are attempting to influence? Only Stephen Docherty, who has now ended his stint, and Addi Spiers provided any real golfing experience around that table and I say that with all due respect to the other non-executive directors, none of whom, contrary to what some people seem to believe, are paid for their roles.


Incoming chief executive Andrew McKinlay, on the other hand, is set to be rewarded handsomely when he when he leaves his current post at the Scottish Football Association to take up the reins in May, and the first thing he needs to do is get on the phone to all the country’s leading players, male and female, to get them to help shape that future because, believe me, they are up for it and equipped for the challenge of trying to play a part in sorting out this mess.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom Doak - if the English golf union has an advantage over the Scots, how do we explain Northern Ireland with 1/3 of Scotland’s population producing three winners of major championships over the past 10 years?

[Jon Wiggett]

What did they expect? That the members would just say yes to more of the same?


It is frighteningly sad that they just do not get it. Scottish Golf has spent years doing absolutely nothing for it's members concentrating on an elite player and tournament programme that has completely failed to produce any results. Big wages, lots of jollies and no results. Of course when the board in its wisdom employs a person to head the organisation who is nothing to do with the game of golf and only interested in the position as a stop gap until he can get back to his true passion of tennis then such dismal results are almost a forgone conclusion.


Still, at least now they have learned the lesson as the appointment of the new guy is a man is equally nothing to do with golf but was second in command at the highly successful Scottish Football Association who we all know have been one of the leading lights of international football (read into that 'rat jumping off a sinking ship).


I have attended three meetings/conferences to do with the game of golf in Scotland in the last 3 months. One was the PGA's Scottish section annual meeting where the new main man at the PGA laid out the vision of where the organisation was going. It clearly showed an ability to understand what the organisation was about, what it had to offer and where it could use its abilities to better the game for its members and the game as a whole.


The BIGGA conference in Perth where the main man from the R&A spoke about the challenges facing the game and the plans the R&A had to tackle it which were well thought out and seemed to be possible to implement.


Finally, the emergency meeting called by Scottish Golf before Christmas in which we were given a load of stats about the state of the game, no vision for any future direction (or desire to think about one) and were basically told to think about paying more once again.


The entire board of Scottish Golf need to GO. They have failed entirely. It is a sad time in the golfing world in Scotland but what the golf clubs in Scotland really need is an organisation who looks after the needs of the member clubs and not a bunch of national tournament organisers who treat the membership with contempt.


I know it is a bit of a rant but it is so vexing to watch such an important golfing body act not just in a totally clueless way but even when they admit they have failed basically stick two fingers up at the membership and just carry on in the same fashion.




Jon

[Michael Whitaker]

“Sell the game on the basis that a 4 hour walk burns 1000 calories, equal to an hour in the gym and you can play a round of golf for the next 40 years and you are likely to live 5 years longer based on the muscle usage, exercise, positive mental aspects of competition.”


Adrian - I have wondered for some time why golf is not promoted as excellent exercise to recruit new players, especially in Scotland. In the States golf is mostly thought of as a riding game, so it would take a big effort to swing the perception of the game away from a lazy man’s pastime, but it can be done.


Most of the guys I play with are seniors and dedicated walkers who play golf for exercise as much as anything. As you say, our games have gone downhill, but we enjoy the fellowship, fresh air and five mile walk. Young people could be attracted to the game, I think, if it were promoted as  fun way to get a physical workout.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/scottish-golf-aims-to-boost-clubs-with-new-tee-booking-system-1-4836922



Scottish Golf aims to boost clubs with new tee booking system
MARTIN DEMPSTER
Thursday 29 November 2018


Chief executive Andrew McKinlay is looking for a “game-changer that could potentially bring in millions” for Scottish Golf. He’s hoping he has found it with an App that aims to see golf clubs getting 100 per cent of green fees from a huge nomadic golfing population in the sport’s cradle.


Set to be McKinlay’s trump card at the second Scottish Golf national conference in Edinburgh on Saturday, the new App is linked to a free suite of software that the 
governing body is offering to its member clubs, many of which are facing a battle for survival. The main aim of the Scottish Golf App will be to get the so-called nomads – a group that currently makes up around 
80 per cent of Scotland’s total golfing population – to book their pay-and-play rounds directly with the clubs rather than going through an outside booking website.


The company delivering the App already works with more than 20 tours around the world and both McKinlay and Iain Forsyth, a golf industry expert who is now helping Scottish Golf explore commercial opportunities, are confident it will prove money well spent by the governing body as it bids to step up its support for clubs.


“The return on investment [part of the cost is being funded by a £3.25 increase in the affiliation fee paid by club members] is potentially huge, both in what clubs can save by not paying for systems they currently use but also in relation to income from pay-per-play golfers,” said McKinlay.


“This new system will connect all those who play the game in Scotland. We have a situation at the moment where circa 21 per cent of golfers are members and they are paying most of the upkeep of courses in Scotland. You have another 80 per cent, who are paying some by paying green fees, but this system will look at ways of bringing them into the fold and we are really excited about that.


“People sometimes think there’s a lot of talk from Scottish Golf but they don’t actually do anything. We had a presentation about a mock up of this last year. Twelve months on we have an actual App and it’s a really impressive piece of kit.


“We are looking to start testing after Saturday. We know clubs are interested. Some are contracted in with other parties, but others want to get right in and involved in the new year.”


According to Forsyth, the Scottish Golf App, which is a trail-blazer among the four Home Unions, will be more user-friendly than some of the current tee-time booking systems. “We are going to offer every club a level-playing field of good quality, state of the art software,” he said. “Where did we take our cue from? Well, forget golf. If you are banking, booking a flight etc, what is now acceptable?


“The techie guys are all into how many clicks does a consumer make before they go away. As an example, we tried to get on to a well-known golf course in Scotland and we were 17 clicks in before we got to pay. We are going to be three or four by the time you pay.


“We want to enable clubs to make it easier and make the experience for the golfer
smooth and relative to the world they live in. Right now, people have to bend over backwards and put up with stuff because it’s golf. We want to get away from that. We want to speak to 100 per cent of golfers, not 20 per cent.


“Generally speaking, there are tee-time bookings out there on various platforms and clubs have to barter away to get that if they can’t afford it. We take that away. We’ll be part of the barter system. [With the new App], the clubs get 100 per cent of the fee paid by the pay-and-play golfer and they’ll also get a free website.”


McKinlay, who attended the inaugural conference 12 months ago as a club member, said he is going into this one with “genuine positivity”. His rallying cry to the 500 delegates heading to the EICC? “Let’s get together. We are in the home of golf, we have an amazing product, so let’s shout about it positively for a change,” he declared.


“We got the affiliation fee through in October and I say, ‘yes it’s important to get the money’ but to get a 60 per cent vote said to me that there is a feeling that we are starting to go in a different direction. I hope we feel that in the hall on Saturday. I’m not expecting all 500-odd people to have banners and make it like a Trump rally. There will be naysayers there, but it’s our job to persuade them and get them on the positive side.”

[Marty Bonnar]

These people are being paid professional salaries for this idiocy is beyond belief.
F.

[Jon Wiggett]

I know Marty. It is just unbelievable.


However, finally those charged with looking after their member clubs are finally going to do something positive for their members instead of big competitions and expensive blazers. It is 10 years late and I fail to see any ambition in trying to convert nomadic golfers into club members but you can't expect too much I suppose.


Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

On my recent non-golfing trip to St Andrews we took a taxi from Leuchers Station into the town. Our driver was a keen golfer and waxed lyrically about the various courses.


More interesting however, was his sadness that young people in St Andrews are just not interested in golf any more. Even though they can play for next to nothing, participation among locals has apparently declined precipitously.


If St Andrews is struggling to get people into golf, what chance does anyone else have?  Or is it just that the perennial sight of fat middle-aged American tourists in unpleasant trousers detracts irretrievably from any coolness the game might once have had?

 

[Michael Graham]

On my recent non-golfing trip to St Andrews we took a taxi from Leuchers Station into the town. Our driver was a keen golfer and waxed lyrically about the various courses.


More interesting however, was his sadness that young people in St Andrews are just not interested in golf any more. Even though they can play for next to nothing, participation among locals has apparently declined precipitously.


If St Andrews is struggling to get people into golf, what chance does anyone else have?  Or is it just that the perennial sight of fat middle-aged American tourists in unpleasant trousers detracts irretrievably from any coolness the game might once have had?

 

Or is it just that the perennial sight of fat middle-aged American tourists in unpleasant trousers detracts irretrievably from any coolness the game might once have had?

Really? Come on Duncan, no need for that for that sort of comment.

[Mark Pearce]

On my recent non-golfing trip to St Andrews we took a taxi from Leuchers Station into the town. Our driver was a keen golfer and waxed lyrically about the various courses.


More interesting however, was his sadness that young people in St Andrews are just not interested in golf any more. Even though they can play for next to nothing, participation among locals has apparently declined precipitously.


If St Andrews is struggling to get people into golf, what chance does anyone else have?  Or is it just that the perennial sight of fat middle-aged American tourists in unpleasant trousers detracts irretrievably from any coolness the game might once have had?

 

Or is it just that the perennial sight of fat middle-aged American tourists in unpleasant trousers detracts irretrievably from any coolness the game might once have had?

Really? Come on Duncan, no need for that for that sort of comment.

Duncan's comment may have been over the line but there's a hint of truth in it.  St Andrews now reeks of a lot of what is worst about golf.  Hugely expensive equipment and clothing and tiers of privilege, much of it now bought by money.  In the 25 years since I first visited as a golfer it has changed, and not for the better.


I can see why kids growing up in St Andrews may not see golf as an attractive way to spend time if what they see on the streets is what they think golf means.

[Mark Chaplin]

I guess the hordes of kids having free group lessons on the range and playing  the Balgove in the holidays don’t count. Wee Wonders and the junior opens appeared to be full as well.

[Thomas Dai]

Or is it just that the perennial sight of fat middle-aged American tourists in unpleasant trousers detracts irretrievably from any coolness the game might once have had?

Really? Come on Duncan, no need for that for that sort of comment.

Many years ago I attended a wedding reception in Russucks Hotel. A group had gathered at a window and were playing a game amongst themselves. The game? Spot the nationality playing TOC.
Modest colours, black/brown shoes, carrying their own smallish bags? Scots and British apparently.
Loud colours and voices, white/multicoloured shoes, cameras, wide of girth, huge golf bags, caddies, cigars? ........
Just a recollection.
Atb

[Michael Graham]

We’re better than lazy, sweeping generalisations.

[Jeff Schley]

If St Andrews is struggling to get people into golf, what chance does anyone else have?  Or is it just that the perennial sight of fat middle-aged American tourists in unpleasant trousers detracts irretrievably from any coolness the game might once have had?

 

Wow. .....as tongue in cheek as this might have been intended some things are better left unsaid.  It is a public course even for yanks and the UK does allow Americans visa free entry last I checked. 

[Niall C]

The main aim of the Scottish Golf App will be to get the so-called nomads – a group that currently makes up around 
80 per cent of Scotland’s total golfing population – to book their pay-and-play rounds directly with the clubs rather than going through an outside booking website.

Surely the main aim, as discussed at length elsewhere on here, is to entice these nomads to become club members somewhere. Surely this is having the opposite effect.

Niall

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