Golf in Scotland is sinking fast

[Thomas Dai]

Some local chat that Kirkcaldy GC - commonly known as Balwearie - is in dire straits. I think it was OTM’s final layout?
Cheers,
F.
EDIT: https://www.scotsman.com/sport/scottish-golf-club-draws-up-survival-plan-amid-significant-challenges-4781223

To paraphrase Billy Connelly “What’s that smell?”

Atb

[Matt Schoolfield]

Apologies for the logrolling, but I only recently added Hirsel to the wiki. What a bummer. At least it will stay there as a record.

If anyone wants to send me a photo of a scorecard, I’ll add it to the database. If anyone want to record information as posterity, that’s what the wiki is there for.

https://golfcourse.wiki/course/hirsel_golf_club-coldstream

[Wayne_Kozun]

British Law is the worst in the modern world and England Golf have supported that something like" if a golf course is open for play it must be open for ALL and that means if a disabled person wants a buggy then you must serve them or the course must be closed for ALL" there is a paragraph about 'reasonable etc' a word that the putrid lawyers leach on to finance their pockets with the eternal paper trail. A lot of UK golf courses will have to install paths.

I don't think this is unique to the UK.  In 2011 I was at Cape Kidnappers and did a tour of the property from the person who's family sold the property to Julian Robertson.  He said that a tea house was put in along the house to give hikers a place to stop.  Apparently the hike is fairly difficult and requires climbing over rocks.  The tea house was required to put in a wheelchair ramp although no one in a wheelchair would ever be able to successfully get to the place.

[Chris Hughes]

British Law is the worst in the modern world and England Golf have supported that something like" if a golf course is open for play it must be open for ALL and that means if a disabled person wants a buggy then you must serve them or the course must be closed for ALL" there is a paragraph about 'reasonable etc' a word that the putrid lawyers leach on to finance their pockets with the eternal paper trail. A lot of UK golf courses will have to install paths.

I don't think this is unique to the UK.  In 2011 I was at Cape Kidnappers and did a tour of the property from the person who's family sold the property to Julian Robertson.  He said that a tea house was put in along the house to give hikers a place to stop.  Apparently the hike is fairly difficult and requires climbing over rocks.  The tea house was required to put in a wheelchair ramp although no one in a wheelchair would ever be able to successfully get to the place.

Bethpage State Park is obligated to provide single-rider carts for persons who are properly accredited as disabled/handicapped (?) to play the Black course...

...in 15 years I only saw it once.

[Mark Pearce]

(the British are not very obedient)

Rubbish.  We are, by a significant distance, the most rule obeying European nation.  You may wish it was otherwise (part of me does) but that’s the truth.

[Niall C]

By and large I agree with Mark however I think, regrettably, that is changing. I think we need to bring back flogging and birching. That would sort out slow play.


Niall

[Enno Gerdes]

By and large I agree with Mark however I think, regrettably, that is changing. I think we need to bring back flogging and birching. That would sort out slow play.


Niall

Wait until after this week’s Buda to bring it back, please.

[Adam Lawrence]

(the British are not very obedient)

Rubbish.  We are, by a significant distance, the most rule obeying European nation.  You may wish it was otherwise (part of me does) but that’s the truth.

I suppose. Certainly where queueing is concerned. But I still think there is a strain of disobedience in the British that would make them resent a cart path only rule.

[Stewart Abramson]

I think there's a difference between the English and the rest of GB. In my experience the English have been very strict rule followers. Here are just a couple of examples.


Once on a rainy morning at Worplesdon  I was a single playing behind a two ball. We were the only players on the back 9 and I was on their tail the entire round. On a par 3 I asked if I could join them. They declined because the rule was only two ball play was allowed at that time. The time for 4 ball play was coming at the top of the hour about 15 minutes away, and there was no one  behind us. They did let me play through though.


At Liphook I was required to replace my barely visible black below the ankle socks with white socks due to their white socks only rule when wearing shorts.

[Adam Lawrence]

(the British are not very obedient)

Rubbish.  We are, by a significant distance, the most rule obeying European nation.  You may wish it was otherwise (part of me does) but that’s the truth.

I suppose. Certainly where queueing is concerned. But I still think there is a strain of disobedience in the British that would make them resent a cart path only rule.

[Niall C]

I think there's a difference between the English and the rest of GB. In my experience the English have been very strict rule followers. Here are just a couple of examples.


Once on a rainy morning at Worplesdon  I was a single playing behind a two ball. We were the only players on the back 9 and I was on their tail the entire round. On a par 3 I asked if I could join them. They declined because the rule was only two ball play was allowed at that time. The time for 4 ball play was coming at the top of the hour about 15 minutes away, and there was no one  behind us. They did let me play through though.


At Liphook I was required to replace my barely visible black below the ankle socks with white socks due to their white socks only rule when wearing shorts.

Stewart


You seem to be suggesting that in Scotland and presumably Wales and NI that it isn't like that. Can I suggest you try wearing anything but white socks with shorts at Glasgow, or try to play a fourball at Muirfield in the morning, or indeed wear stretch denim at Elie, and I think you'll find out that there are rules elsewhere in the UK.


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

I think there's a difference between the English and the rest of GB. In my experience the English have been very strict rule followers. Here are just a couple of examples.

Once on a rainy morning at Worplesdon  I was a single playing behind a two ball. We were the only players on the back 9 and I was on their tail the entire round. On a par 3 I asked if I could join them. They declined because the rule was only two ball play was allowed at that time. The time for 4 ball play was coming at the top of the hour about 15 minutes away, and there was no one  behind us. They did let me play through though.

At Liphook I was required to replace my barely visible black below the ankle socks with white socks due to their white socks only rule when wearing shorts.

Stewart

You seem to be suggesting that in Scotland and presumably Wales and NI that it isn't like that. Can I suggest you try wearing anything but white socks with shorts at Glasgow, or try to play a fourball at Muirfield in the morning, or indeed wear stretch denim at Elie, and I think you'll find out that there are rules elsewhere in the UK.

Niall

White socks with shorts? HERESY!

Everyone knows that knee socks are the only appropriate pairing with shorts. A few years ago I went on a beautiful summer's day to Royal Cinque Ports to play golf. I wore shorts, and drove to Deal, and, on arrival, parked in the visitors' car lot. Literally the instant I switched off the engine I had a moment of clarity: "S***! It's a long sock club!" Obviously I was wearing white ankle socks. Andrew Reynolds, now sadly retired after 45 years as head pro at RCP, but shortly to take over as the club's captain, was delighted to relieve me of, I think, £25, for a pair of RCP knee socks. They're still in my sock drawer, I don't think I have worn them since. Actually it was one of Andrew's minions, but I'm sure the feeling was the same...

[Thomas Dai]

A club dress code which requires the wearing of ultra-ultra-long socks plus long sleeve shirts, turtleneck shirts and gloves on both hands would be nice. That way we could avoid having to view the tattoos that seem to have proliferated on the bodies of golfers over the last few years.
And while I’m at it, golfers who wear their hats the wrong way around shouldn’t be allowed either, and not just on the course but on the entire premises.


Atb

[Niall C]

Adam


You can wear long socks at Glasgow and many do, but they still have to be white.


I recall going through to play at Luffness New on a scorching day and was wearing shorts with short socks on the way. My plan was to stop for a coffee on the way through and change into my long socks so I was appropriately dressed on arrival. Unfortunately a series of traffic jams put paid to that idea and I was lucky to make my tee-time. The secretary wasn't amused at me being improperly dressed on my arrival.


I won't be making the same mistake at this years BUDA. When we go to Elie I'll already be wearing my long socks (blue) on arrival.


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

I’m not sure this is even Architecture any more, but hey-ho:
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/another-scottish-golf-club-announces-it-is-closing-reached-a-point-where-this-cannot-continue-4785867

[Adrian_Stiff]

I’m not sure this is even Architecture any more, but hey-ho:
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/another-scottish-golf-club-announces-it-is-closing-reached-a-point-where-this-cannot-continue-4785867

Scottish golf at the lower level is set up to be a disaster. The Annual Subscriptions at £600 per year leave a massive hole in the balance sheet. The lower tier clubs receive almost zero from the big spending golf visitors. The members/scots have driven the price down and costs have soared. Whilst Scottish golf is half price, Scottish wages are still full price.


A golf club can't really survive at £600 pa. Probably need £1000 if you got 500 members.

[Niall C]

Adrian


There are other business models available !


I just spent 5 or 10 minutes googling membership fees for some of my old haunts up north and at several the full membership was between £400 and £450 and in one case just under £400. I would suggest that none are really mainstream tourist haunts and neither are they likely to have memberships of 500 plus.


So how do they manage ? Basically by cutting their cloth to suit. Clubhouses are modest, lightly staffed and with the bar open at weekends only, greenkeeping staff numbers are low (the one under £400 had one greenkeeper when I was up there) and from what I recall there wasn't a professional. That "level of service" won't suit everyone but many are happy with it.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian


There are other business models available !


I just spent 5 or 10 minutes googling membership fees for some of my old haunts up north and at several the full membership was between £400 and £450 and in one case just under £400. I would suggest that none are really mainstream tourist haunts and neither are they likely to have memberships of 500 plus.


So how do they manage ? Basically by cutting their cloth to suit. Clubhouses are modest, lightly staffed and with the bar open at weekends only, greenkeeping staff numbers are low (the one under £400 had one greenkeeper when I was up there) and from what I recall there wasn't a professional. That "level of service" won't suit everyone but many are happy with it.


Niall

I agree 100% you can operate as a one man band but that club in distress did not look like it operated like that.

[Mark Pearce]

I won't be making the same mistake at this years BUDA. When we go to Elie I'll already be wearing my long socks (blue) on arrival.

SAdly the long sock rule is history at Elie.  I'll still be wearing a variety of club socks over the weekend.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/open-qualifying-venue-warns-members-of-closure-threat-4814293


Musselburgh Golf Club, which has staged both Regional and Final Qualifying for the game’s oldest major, has asked its members to pay an immediate levy of £100 after encountering “cash flow” issues.

A “strategy meeting” was held a fortnight ago and now an EGM is taking place on Wednesday, when members will be asked to vote on two options. One is that no action is taken and “risk closure” while the second is for the immediate imposition of the levy.

In a letter to members, the club said: “The board is working to ensure that MGC is sustainable. It has identified the need to strengthen the financial position in the short-term to ensure we can meet our obligations up to the end of 2024.

“Separately, the board recognises it is necessary to review all aspects of how MGC operates in order to remain financially sound into the long term.”

If passed, the levy would raise £55,000 and the letter added: “We believe this will be sufficient to top up our regular income to meet immediate expenditure.”

Widely known as Monktonhall and e, the club hosted Regional Qualifying for The Open from 2006 to 2010 before it then staged a Final Qualifier for the 2013 Open at Muirfield.

[James Reader]

Scotscraig is struggling as well…


https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/golf/5099272/fife-golf-course-scotscraig-vote-future/

[Mike Worth]

Scotscraig is struggling as well…


https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/golf/5099272/fife-golf-course-scotscraig-vote-future/

Interesting.


A couple of random observations. There are two articles (2017, 2019) in Golf Architecture Magazine that discuss the club’s 10-year renovation plan, which apparently started in 2017.  Neither article discusses whether this was in-house or whether an architectural firm was hired.  i’m guessing this was in-house


The other observation is I spent a week in Fife this past June. I did research on the fly looking for alternatives in case I couldn’t get on to the St. Andrews courses.  Scotscraig did not make any of my Google searches — this was the first I’ve heard of the course.

[Richard Fisher]

The slightly strange juxtaposition is of this thread with the concurrent one about Elie and its members-and-guests-only summer policy. One suggests a very thriving club context, the other the polar opposite. Both can, of course, be true simultaneously...elsewhere in the UK reports of sporadic club and course closures continue, but then at the same time so do reports of thriving and/or reintroduced waiting lists. Many clubs remain in a (much) healthier position than they were pre-COVID but those professionally involved like Adrian et al will have a much better idea of how things are shaping up for the generality of mid-table suburban clubs where so much English (NB) golf takes place.

[Mike Worth]

The slightly strange juxtaposition is of this thread with the concurrent one about Elie and its members-and-guests-only summer policy. One suggests a very thriving club context, the other the polar opposite. Both can, of course, be true simultaneously...elsewhere in the UK reports of sporadic club and course closures continue, but then at the same time so do reports of thriving and/or reintroduced waiting lists. Many clubs remain in a (much) healthier position than they were pre-COVID but those professionally involved like Adrian et al will have a much better idea of how things are shaping up for the generality of mid-table suburban clubs where so much English (NB) golf takes place.

It’s a good point. Can you explain how both things can be true at the same time in Fife? There are so many Americans in St. Andrews one would think that Scottscraig would thrive simply by people looking for alternative venues.

[Sean_A]

The slightly strange juxtaposition is of this thread with the concurrent one about Elie and its members-and-guests-only summer policy. One suggests a very thriving club context, the other the polar opposite. Both can, of course, be true simultaneously...elsewhere in the UK reports of sporadic club and course closures continue, but then at the same time so do reports of thriving and/or reintroduced waiting lists. Many clubs remain in a (much) healthier position than they were pre-COVID but those professionally involved like Adrian et al will have a much better idea of how things are shaping up for the generality of mid-table suburban clubs where so much English (NB) golf takes place.

It’s a good point. Can you explain how both things can be true at the same time in Fife? There are so many Americans in St. Andrews one would think that Scottscraig would thrive simply by people looking for alternative venues.

I have thought about playing Scotscraig a few times. Nobody I know has told me it’s worth the journey or green fee. I wonder if local visitors are now priced out of the market for middle tier clubs charging a fairly high green fee. Maybe we will see tiered green fee policies for more courses which are on the low side of the radar? Meaning locals or those in Scotland Golf can play cheaper than out and out tourists. Either way, I am a bit surprised because Scotscraig does have a decent reputation and is known in golf circles.

Ciao

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