[Dan_Callahan]

I will preface this post by saying that Tobacco Road might be my favorite public course in America. Certainly top 5. I spent all of last week there, staying in the cabin and playing 36 a day. Weather was perfect.

With that out of the way, I think the course would be better if the 16th green was altered. I don't pay much attention to people who harp about fairness, but the 16th green is simply too extreme.

The tee shot is blind, but short. You really don't need to hit it more than 200 yards, which leaves you with this look from about 120 yards …




So far, so good. I'm a big fan of the occasional blind tee shot, and a big fan of an occasional short par 4.

However, after about 10 plays of this hole, I can't ignore just how much luck is required to stay on the green. The green is completely blind from 120 yards. It is a sort of double plateau. If the pin is in the front, any ball that is hit to the top plateau will be putted off the green. A ball that is just slightly past the hole but up the slope will roll backwards and off the green. And by "off the green," I mean all the way down the hill.

When the hole is cut in the top shelf, the landing area is miniscule. It seems the safest play is to rely on luck and aim well left or well right, drop your approach onto one of the banks, and hope that it bounces sideways down to the green.

I love everything about this course, but the 16th hole would be better (in my opinion) if the front of the green was slightly raised so that there is at least a chance that an approach can hold.

The 5th is a good example of a very, very fast and severe green on a short par 4 that works. It's very easy to putt off that green and roll down the hill, but that's just a result of poor execution. The 16th feels to me like it involves way too much luck.

[Peter Sayegh]

Dan,

I cannot think of another hole that I've played that triggers such ambivalence.I always aim right on my approach-which may be stupid.

[Brock Lynch]

Dan,


How awesome it is that you were able to spend that amount of time playing one course and really getting to know it well. Great picture of the 16th. Played TR last Thursday on a partly cloudy, 70 degree day. It was a good day and I enjoyed the course more on this day than I had on two previous visits. The 16th is one of the more extreme greens on the course and I have not played to a back pin there, but I imagine it would be very difficult to put your approach on that level as it is very shallow. We played to a front pin and were able to stay on the green. However, I can see where a ball that almost reaches the back level could come off the front and down the hill. I don't think that this green is unique at TR, in terms of perceived fairness. It really depends on where you put your ball on the approach.

[Dan_Callahan]

It’s funny … Thursday was the one day we didn’t play TR. Drove to Pinehurst to play Pine Needles. And I have to say … that is the longest 6,500-yard course I think I’ve ever played. I’m not crazy long, but I’m not short either, and I’m not sure I’ve ever had more long irons into par 4s. The contrast between PN and TR was cool to think about … and made me wish there were more courses like TR out there. PN is great, but it’s very similar to lots of Ross courses (that isn’t a complaint or criticism, just an observation). TR is truly unique and a blast to play. Makes me want to go back to Royal New Kent now that conditions there sound like they are improving.

[Jay Mickle]

I have played with some young guns who see the 16th as a drivable par 4. Only one actually held the green (or perhaps went long and rolled back on). Throughout the course many of the fairways are in bowls where wide shots are funneled back toward to the fairway to the golfers advantage. Perhaps this hole favors those with great distance control and the lucky. Life is not always fair, let's be happy with fun.
.

[Tommy Williamsen]

On a course filled with awkward holes this is one of the most awkward. The tee shot is fine and relatively benign. It’s the second shot that is fraught with danger. For being uphill and unable to see the surface of the green it is too severe, but it is a short shot and four is pretty easy to get. We just want a three with such a short second shot. I played the course with Forest Fezler the year it opened. He told me that given where the hole lay there was not much else they could do but design that hole.

[Amol Yajnik]

I love TR and played it multiple times last year, but this is the hole that I dislike the most on that course.  The tee shot is blind but it's a 200 yard shot, not the most challenging thing out there.  The approach shot is going to be a wedge for most people, and it's a distance control test.  It's not that hard of a hole for better players, but is an absolute nightmare for higher handicaps.  I think that higher handicaps also struggle more with the front pin because they don't hit it as solid or don't take enough club for the uphill approach, come up short and the ball is 50 yards back down the hill.  But for better players, I'd argue the back pin is tougher.  You would think that it would be easier because you don't really have to worry about the ball rolling off the front of the green all the way back down the hill.  But on the other hand, it's very hard to get the ball to stop on that back section instead of rolling off the back and then you have a tough 3rd shot. 



It is also an example where slowing the greens down a bit makes the hole play better, because doing that allows balls that have been putted from the top level to the bottom level to actually stay on the green.  No chance of that happening in the summer or early fall when the greens are really dialed up.

[Scott Warren]

Is this the hole?


https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYHOZc4h0kbmZrlS4Hl2oOqqLtES1y-IQxkc5s0/?utm_medium=copy_link

[Charles Lund]

I've played six rounds on Tobacco Road, playing two rounds on each of my first three trips to the Pinehurst area. I have played Tobacco Road more than any other course in the Pinehurst area. 


Besides #16, I can quickly recall a few greens that have diabolical kinds of pin positions that relate in part to the shape of the green, location of bunkers or collection areas off the greens, and the requirement for precise distance control.  These would include #6, #7,#11, #13, #15, and #17.


I was with a friend on one trip and he nearly walked off the course after four holes.  By the time we were on the back nine, he asked me if I thought we could get a replay that day.  We could and did play 36 holes that day.


Charles Lund


 

[Kyle Harris]

Go skiing a few times and you'll figure out how to two-putt from almost any upper-to-lower tier, including this one. At the very least you'll get into a position where you won't putt off the green. You're not entitled to a two putt.

How does blindness correlate to fairness? You can see the hole location while going from the 14th to the 15th.

[Peter Sayegh]

From 17 tee:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194357794@N03/51798805586/in/dateposted-public/https://www.flickr.com/photos/194357794@N03/51798940038/in/dateposted-public/

[Brett Meyer]

I agree with others that this is one of the worst, if not the worst hole at Tobacco Road. It has numerous faults and as a previous poster mentioned, it's absolutely brutal on high handicappers.

First, I'm very suspicious about any hole where the course employs someone to be a ball spotter, which is the case here (and on 13). You might say 'well, every blind hole could use a ball spotter.' But that's not necessarily true; if the drive is blind but it's mostly clear on the other side of the blindness, it's not necessary. But here, even though there's a lot of fairway, it's still easy to clear some of the junk only to end up in more junk. But the drive isn't so hard for low handicappers so this is mostly a criticism about how it plays for high handicappers.

Everything else is a problem for everyone. One of my issues with Tobacco Road is that while the course is on sand, it still plays very soggy when wet--completely unlike the other Pinehurst courses. This hole was the biggest offender, even though the fairway is covered with drains. Which is what causes the next problem--most balls collect near these drains and you're likely to end up in a divot or at best in a soggy lie. This isn't a problem with the design of the hole per se, but it's very annoying and I don't understand why the shaping couldn't have been different, given how extensive the shaping was generally.

But the shaping of the green is a problem from a design perspective. As the original poster noted, you can hit the middle of the green and end up 50 yards back down the fairway because the tier is so severe. You don't even need to hit a shot with a lot of spin to do this. It's enough to be going at a front pin and miss 15 feet long or at a back pin and miss 20 feet short. And you can't hedge short to a front pin to avoid this because you get the same result.

The hole might work better if the pin is in the back because it might be fine to hedge a bit long (I don't remember). And it might make sense to intentionally aim to the side of the green if the pin is in the front. Maybe this kicks the ball onto the front of the green rather than back down the hill. I'd have to try that shot a few times to know whether it'd work.

Still, even if these other options help a bit, the original poster is right that the green is just too severe. And the rest of the hole isn't great either.

[Kyle Harris]

I've never seen a spotter on any hole at Tobacco Road in my 8 or so times playing there. Seems like a solution in search of a problem.

[Mark_Fine]

As many have stated in earlier Tobacco Road posts, we love the golf course.  But there are many aspects that some might feel are over the top (literally at times  ) but it grows on you the more you play it and that is what makes it special.  As most architects will tell you, a short hole like #16 probably demands something like the green to be challenging as for most it is a short second shot.  Many of those greens could get goofy if rolling at 13 but regardless it is a fun and entertaining/thought provoking course to play.  I loved it including #16. 

[Matt Wharton]

Last month I joined good friend Lee Strutt, course manager from the U.K. at Tobacco Road for a guided course walk with TR golf course superintendent Morgan Stephenson. Morgan has worked at TR since construction and served as an assistant super prior to ascending to the superintendent role... in other words he knows the course inside and out.  Morgan was gracious with his time as the three of us walked the entire property discussing architecture, construction methods, agronomy, and maintenance.


When we arrived at 16 Morgan stated he believed there is a need for renovation for the very reason described at the beginning of this thread.  He referenced they typically keep the hole mostly located on the upper tier to avoid players putting off the front of the green when the pin is cut on the lower level because the ball will not stop.  Not to mention the small collection area at the base of the hill void of all turf (AKA divotsville). 


Happy New Year!

[Brett Meyer]

I've never seen a spotter on any hole at Tobacco Road in my 8 or so times playing there. Seems like a solution in search of a problem.

The problem, I would imagine, is customers complaining to management about losing their balls after what they thought were decent shots and/or the pace of play grinding down because there are too many places to lose a ball and people are taking too much time looking for them.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
I would be more concerned about all balls rolling off the false front to the same spot (as you say in divotsville) vs the false front itself.  There are ways to break up the distances balls would roll depending on their pace coming off the front. 


The same problem occurs on #5.  I tried to drive that green (there is great temptation) and hit my tee shot into the false front and the ball rolled back down the hill to 30 or so yards from the green.  My next shot (to a middle left hole location) rolled back to my feet as well.  Meanwhile my partner played his tee shot to the right laying up and hit a flip wedge to 10 feet right of the hole and made the putt.  I had more fun off the tee but it ended there and he had the better score.  But can't blame that on the architect.  All this said, what I don't like is when all balls rolling off a false front roll to the same spot - but this can be adjusted. 

[Stewart Abramson]

Tobacco Road #16 e 76



Tobacco Road #16 d 75


Tobacco Road #16 f 77  Long birdie putt. They don't all roll off

[Dan_Callahan]

The same problem occurs on #5.  I tried to drive that green (there is great temptation) and hit my tee shot into the false front and the ball rolled back down the hill to 30 or so yards from the green.  My next shot (to a middle left hole location) rolled back to my feet as well.  Meanwhile my partner played his tee shot to the right laying up and hit a flip wedge to 10 feet right of the hole and made the putt.  I had more fun off the tee but it ended there and he had the better score.  But can't blame that on the architect.  All this said, what I don't like is when all balls rolling off a false front roll to the same spot - but this can be adjusted.

That's exactly the point ... on 5, you have options. Go for the green off the tee and you are screwed if you don't carry far enough onto the green.


OR


Play out to the right with a 4 or 5 iron and have wedge in. You still have to hit a good shot, but much easier to land it in the right spot.


On 16, there is no risk/reward scenario for 99.999% of golfers. Hit a 200-yard tee shot, hope you don't roll into a divot, throw a wedge up the hill and hope. Obviously, the difficulty of holding the green varies depending on conditions. When we played on Tuesday, it was dry and you literally could not stay on the green if you were putting from the upper shelf to the lower. It was also virtually impossibly to keep an approach shot on the lower part of the green. Later in the week, after it rained overnight, a good shot was more likely to stay up. Which is why I think it is a better hole if the green was changed. Not a ton. Just enough so that it's not ridiculous. Tons of TR's greens are right on the edge of ridiculousness. That's one of the reasons I love it. In my opinion, 16 takes it just a bit too far.

[Mark_Fine]

Don,
Many great holes live on the edge depending on the day’s conditions.  If it was 100 yards longer I would agree with you more about 16.  Some architect’s are too conservative, Strantz was not 😊

[A.G._Crockett]

Spotters?  The CGA has used a spotter on the first dune of #1 in tournament play, but I’ve never seen a spotter anywhere else at TR, ever. 


As to the approach shot on #16, I’ve never once hit a shot my intended distance and gotten a horrible result. It IS intimidating shot, both because of the sight lines and because of the expectations with a wedge in your hand. So be it.


I don’t have data for this, but my feeling is that my big numbers on 16 over the years (and I’ve played there a lot!) have been more about poor tee shots than the approach.  I find it much easier than others, apparently, to miss the correct line off the tee and leave myself a much more difficult approach than I might have had.  But that’s just me…

[Jerry Kluger]

The last time I played TR we came to the 16th tee (After playing 15 where we had no idea where the pin was.) and there was a group teeing off and there were two other groups waiting to tee off.  The round had begun with a frost delay so I watched 5 or 6 groups tee off on the first hole and more than half hit their tee shots into the high grass and never found their balls. I'll take Southern Pines 10 - 0.

[Mark_Fine]

Jerry’s comment is why golf course evaluations are so subjective.  He takes SP 10-0 over TR.  It’s his opinion even though many others including me would argue otherwise.  I always said if my old golf league had to play their 9 hole matches at Pine Valley, at least half of them would quit the game.  Talk about lost balls and X’s on your card and three hours to finish. Most were not good enough to appreciate and enjoy a course like that and who would blame them.  That is why there are all different kinds of golf courses.  You pick what you like. 

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

As best as I can tell, TR may just be "best" example of the elusive GCA anomaly, where it it truly seems to be love it or hate it....literally.  And from what i've seen in pictures and otherwise it will certainly be the first course I''ll play when I make it out that way, and its not close.

Perhaps we need another thread to determine the GCA top 10 list of "love it or dump it" courses 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

As best as I can tell, TR may just be "best" example of the elusive GCA anomaly, where it it truly seems to be love it or hate it....literally.  And from what i've seen in pictures and otherwise it will certainly be the first course I''ll play when I make it out that way, and its not close.

People keep saying that, and while true that TR has a lot of "love it" fans, I've not found many "hate it" people. They exist, I'm saying most people who "dislike" the course don't come close to "hating" it. They just dislike it, or think it's over-rated.


My own stance is and almost always has been:

• Relatively easy course to score on if you can avoid the temptations.
• You'll get boned by some stupid stuff at some point in most rounds (#16 counts here).
• Everyone should see it once, because it's unique and crazy and wild. I enjoy taking people there who haven't yet seen it.

That's far from "hate it."

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