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Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2017, 12:28:17 AM »
A very good one is Shoreacres #13.  Gives just enough pucker factor that you have to hit a blind draw, knowing that there's trouble lurking if you overcook or block it.  Then there's the suspenseful climb up the hill to see the result.


+1


Rich Goodale

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2017, 02:07:26 AM »
I really like #1 @ Pacific Dunes.  It's a great WTF!? opener with a really nice green in front of you once you climb over the hill.
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2017, 04:34:41 AM »
There are 4 types of "full" blind tee shot (I discount the ones where position gives you a view):


1. The gentle rise where the gradient eases somewhere before the landing zone. You can typically tell where to aim on this one because you see the fairway clearly crest and disappear - even if there is nothing on the horizon to help. Examples are relatively common including heathlands and Porthcawl. Funnily enough, David Kidd has about 3 of these at Queenwood. Probably the least exciting category.


2. The steep rise up and over to high ground. Here you are hitting up quite a steep hill to enable you to transition to higher ground. Often flat once there e.g. Playing on a dune ridge. Because there tends to be no fairway to aim at, you are relying on a saddle between mounds or a marker pole. Poster child for this type are the 3rd and 7th at
Lahinch. Also 17 at Yale.


3. The drop-shot. I find this one perhaps most exciting. It's where you tee from up high over the remainder of the ridge / high ground before the topography falls away in to the ether. Again you need aiming poles or landmarks. Best of all with this one is the 5th at The Island although no.3 at Carne Kilmore is quite special also (despite a wee sneak peak at the green). Of course, 9 at RCD is the most famous.


4. The up and over. Hit it over a dune for it to land at the same level on the other side. Par threes such as Dell and Himalayas get the kudos here. The 5th at Portmarnock is a great example of a par-4.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 07:02:13 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Adam Uttley

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2017, 06:21:13 AM »
Some others that havenít been mentioned are:


Swinley 2nd & 11th
Woodhall Spa 14th
Rye 6th
New Zealand 8th


I think a greater proportion of blind holes could be considered Ďgreatí than non blind holes, perhaps because the poorer architects havenít attempted them.


I also managed to put together an eclectic blind 18 of the holes Iíve played.  Some fillers that arenít truly great, though, Iím afraid and I really canít pick a winner for 11.


1 Hunstanton
2 Swinley
3 Old Mac
4 RM West
5 Prestwick
6 Rye
7 Sunny Old
8 Pebble
9 RCD
10 Burnham & Berrow
11 Swinley / Sunny Old
12 Addington
13 Royal St Georgeís
14 Woodhall Spa
15 Camberley Heath
16 Pasatiempo
17 TOC
18 Barnbougle Dunes



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2017, 08:24:24 AM »
I'm surprised that the 18th at Barnbougle gets so much love here.  I've actually thought about lowering that fairway some.  Between the blindness and playing into the wind [and into the sun at the end of the day], it's a very intimidating tee shot.

glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2017, 10:21:35 AM »
8 and 17 at Dornoch require the player to make a clear choice and execute well.  I have played them only three times, and I am unsure about the best strategy.  Of course, the strength and direction of the wind is an important factor. 


In each case, playing over the hill requires a carry of perhaps 220 yards, preferably moving right to left to hold the fairways curving in that direction.  Playing from the right rough is no bargain on either hole since the greens are protected short and right with bunkers.


Playing from up top provides a nice view of the each green but a much longer shot.  The 17 green, in particular, is not as receptive from that angle with the large, steep bank on the left side of the green.




MClutterbuck

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2017, 10:26:54 AM »
I love holes with a blind tee shot and I believe architects should build them if the best routing calls for them.


I dont like aiming rocks or poles or other artificially placed markers as much. A natural aiming point is much better.


Better still, I love designs where even though the tee shot is totally blind there is no natural aiming marker, but it is evident where you should aim. These normally require a lot of width.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2017, 12:41:40 PM »

Agree with the third paragraph.  Usually, notching a little swale or valley along the intended centerline makes blind tee shots palatable.


Harder to make blind approach shots palatable precisely because the target is usually smaller than the fairway and the goal is to get close to the pin, not just hit between an area 35-60 yards wide.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Mayhugh

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2017, 02:55:19 PM »
Not sure if any of these is great, but I think all are good examples of where blindness doesn't harm (and may even enhance) the hole.  For me, the keys are width off the tee and a green complex to look forward to.

Royal Hague 7th
Myopia 10th
St. Louis CC 6th
Lookout Mountain 5th
Southerndown 3rd
Kington 13th

And some that are a bit more audacious
Cleeve Hill 17th
Church Stretton 6th & 15th
Painswick 5th!



Phil McDade

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2017, 03:53:27 PM »
#2 at Lawsonia is one of my favorite holes.  There is an element of discomfort in that tee shot where you have to trust yourself to hit it far enough right to prevent an awkward approach.


A very good blind tee shot, but I think the tee shot is much more interesting than the approach, which is -- for Lawsonia -- somewhat bland, esp. the green (large, tilted, with some interesting contour, but it's in the lesser half of Lawsonia's greens). I much prefer the blind tee shot at the par 4 6th at Lawsonia, as well as the short par 4 8th -- an option-filled tee shot were the riskier play is in sight for the player, and the safer and better play is partially or totally blind to the player on the tee -- a neat use of blindness by Langford.

Ben Sims

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2017, 05:26:42 PM »
I just ran through my last round at Ballyneal and recounted how many tee shots I didn't see finish. Holy smokes, I didn't expect to come up with so many.

2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 15, 16.

That's quite a few. So many in fact that maybe there's a less obvious question to be asked here. How many times can an architect ask a player to hit the ball but not see the results of the shot? The relative greatness of BN isn't in question. So it appears that a private club where member play is the overwhelming norm can afford to have more blindness than a public course. Using another great course of Tom's as example, there's really only 2-3 blind tee shots at Pacific Dunes. It stands to reason that the one-time retail player probably wouldn't enjoy a half dozen or more tee shots that they don't know if it's good or not.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 05:28:37 PM by Bn Sms »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2017, 06:57:36 PM »
Good point, it seems to me, by Ben. After all, wasn't it John Kirk's excellent thread a long while ago that pointed out that one of the joys of golf is watching what a golf ball does *after* it lands? If I'm playing a course for the first time (knowing that I likely won't play it regularly), I'm not sure I want to miss that joy more than once or twice -- and then, only if the interest and challenge and intrigued is (and later proves to have been) worth the loss. But at a members club, where the inherent challenge of blind shots remains even after multiple plays and where the (first timer's) intrigue is replaced by the (club member's) anticipation of a range of differing results on any given day/conditions, I can see how 5 or 6 such tee shots would work very well for a long time.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 06:59:24 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2017, 07:24:52 PM »
Pietro

I don't think (for me anyway) that the idea of how many blind shots is acceptable is really the question.  It really comes down to how blindness effects the hole.  If there is a wide fairway with little trouble I can't see the harm in a handful of this sort of shot.  It certainly beats a dog and pony show to offer a view.  The routing must follow the terrain of interest and if that means harmless blind shots that isn't the end of the world.  Courses cannot be so tightly defined if we are going to ask archies to spread their wings.

Tucky...yes, Kington's 13th is a great imo...same for Cleeve Cloud's 17th even though there is tons of trouble lurking that fairway.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 08:56:46 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Iona, Tobermory, Minehead & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tom_Doak

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2017, 08:43:38 PM »
Ben: interesting analysis of Ballyneal.  I only think of one of those holes (#6) as truly blind; on the rest you can easily understand the limits of the fairway, even where you can't see a ball on it.  Funny, at 16, the only part you cannot see is the place you'd most like to wind up - I don't know if I could have thought of that if I'd tried!

Jay Mickle

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2017, 08:02:12 AM »
The semi blind, high pucker factor first hole at Tobacco Road. The tee shot sets the tone for the strategic / heroic roller coaster that is yet to come.
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Jim Franklin

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2017, 08:16:01 AM »
#6 LACC
#18 WBYC (already mentioned but I really liked this hole)
#10 Myopia
Mr Hurricane

Jeff Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2017, 08:40:27 AM »
Sunningdale Old, seventh hole


+1

+2

also didn't see it mentioned but doesn't the 5th at Portrush qualify? a few years since I played it but recall the fairway being mostly blind from the tee due to the dogleg and mini dunes lining the fairway - with the downhill visuals tempting the player to cut off more of the dogleg than might be advisable.

J_ Crisham

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2017, 08:57:24 AM »
3 at OFCC North
7 at Beverly
      Arguably 2 of the better holes in Chicago

Sinclair Eaddy

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2017, 09:07:02 AM »
1st at Myopia


While not a great holes it is the start to a great course. Blind, quirky and a tiny little green. Gets the blood flowing for what lies ahead.

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2017, 09:36:57 AM »
No love for 18 at Merion?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Mike Feeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2017, 09:44:10 AM »
Metacomet's 14th confirms TD's theory on blindness contributing to greatness.

This 448 yard hole doubles-up on blindness...tee shot is blind with right side speed-slot.  Speculating, and then experiencing, if your tee shot "caught the slot" is entertaining and challenging.  2nd shot blind as well mid to long iron...however, if driving length is not your strength or you mishit your drive, player still has the opportunity to recover by catching a 50-yard-from-the-green, "springboard" slope. More drama as you wait to see results as you climb the slope.


Ben Sims

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2017, 10:15:29 AM »
Ben: interesting analysis of Ballyneal.  I only think of one of those holes (#6) as truly blind; on the rest you can easily understand the limits of the fairway, even where you can't see a ball on it.  Funny, at 16, the only part you cannot see is the place you'd most like to wind up - I don't know if I could have thought of that if I'd tried!


I'm told that area of 16 is known as "the bowl of achievement."


I can see where the blindness of a hole like 6 at BN is distinctly different than say 7 at Ballyneal. But that begs the question, after one play at each, is 6 any more or less blind than 7?


Matt Elliot

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2017, 12:18:37 PM »
#17 Dismal River Red is a pretty good hole!

John Sabino

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2017, 12:29:43 PM »
Cruden Bay #15 (named Blin' Dunt), a par 3 extraordinaire
Lahinch's par 3 Dell hole, another above average par 3
Maidstone's 8th (ok, so I like blind par threes!)


If forced to pick just one, it would be Sunningdale's 7th.


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PCCraig

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Re: Great holes with a blind tee shot
« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2017, 12:56:48 PM »
I love the blind tee shot at the 18th at White Bear Yacht Club. The aiming point is a small white statue of a Polar Bear, which appears to be walking on the horizon. When you climb the hill, you are rewarded with an awesome view of White Bear Lake and the Golf House.


I have a vague recollection that the pond near the green is original.  It has always seemed like the work of a green committee in the 1960's to me.  I would love to have that hole designed as a blind drivable par 4.


Jason,


I don't believe the pond is original. As far as I know the green complex was completely rebuilt in the 60's or 70's by Don Herfort (so). I believe the pond replaced a bunker or two. There also used to be three bunkers behind the green next to the road, but those were replaced with the mounding that's there now.


Im not a huge fan of the green complex, but I love the rest of the hole. I think the tee shot is thrilling, as is the view from the top of the hill. Given all of the crazy good green complexes seen by that point in the round, I can see why it can seem like a let down, but I think hitting a wedge and trying to finish with a birdie is a nice end to a round at White Bear.
H.P.S.

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