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Cristian

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Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #125 on: February 06, 2013, 06:06:59 AM »
I understand the bias towards regional volumes, but I would be dissappointed if not every book would have a description of the classics wherever they may be, as part of a 'gourmet choice' kind of chapter or as part of an opening chapter to be included in all volumes. To me the CG is more than a guide of where to play, a guide of how to look at Golf courses and identify why some courses are more fun to play than others, even though the other might look prettier; with great examples and descriptions of individual holes, which make you want to book flight tickets. A book like that should never exclude TOC, or an NGLA, or others, whatever the scope in geographical terms of the Volume.

To really produce a handy regional where-to-play kind of guide, you would want to include at least the best course within an hours travel of anywhere within the region, meaning the US alone would take up many volumes already.

Also I think the book should look good and include pictures and illustrations, because that is what will make people read the book and eventually they will develop an interest in gca, and learn how to select places to play where they will have more fun. A pictureless book would really cater for a group of people who are 'followers' already, wouldn't it?

so for me "A" or a combination of "A" and "C" would be the choice.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2013, 07:49:33 AM »
    I vote for b with one addition.  Have an index at the end of the book with all the 0-5 courses by name and number, but no discussion.  Pictures not necessary, unless your target audience is the "coffee table book crowd."

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #127 on: February 06, 2013, 08:25:00 AM »
If the book were to exclude the 0-5's one would miss many enjoyable courses as well as some of the best commentary on the 0-1's ;)

If the book simply lists commentary on 6's and above, how is it any different than a Golf Digest places to play, all with glowing commentary.

Examples?
Machrie?  4 .......nuff said, but I'll go on ;)
Pacific Grove 4-.....if there was no commentary, you wouldn't know to play the back nine
Dunaverty 2    That's right a 2!!!  Players spending several days near Machrihanish would be DAFT to miss an afternoon at this place
Shiskine 2... pretty unique and fun place to play golf

The point is The CG initially brought these to my attention and the commentary piqued my interest.

Do you really need a guide to tell you about Muirfield, NGLA, and St. Andrews
The unique and (formerly) lesser known gems, as well as Tom's commentary, are what made this book a must have originally, not a
list of trophy courses...IMHO
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #128 on: February 06, 2013, 11:04:46 AM »
Given your time constraints on maintaining/updating a website, the best bet would be to just do C or D as planned and have an e-book version available as a combo and/or separate purchase.  This involves virtually no extra work on your part (?), yet allows people to bring the book with them on their electronic device of choice to reread the reviews on the road just before or after playing a course or to scramble to find a suitable emergency round without lugging the hard copy around.  Believe it or not I read most books on my Iphone now.  A combo price for the hardcopy and the e-book would probably do a lot of business in these parts and is incremental income without additional labor (not an expert on this part but if the publisher isn't used to doing electronic versions of books it might be time to find a new publisher).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 11:15:14 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #129 on: February 06, 2013, 11:14:09 AM »
If the book were to exclude the 0-5's one would miss many enjoyable courses as well as some of the best commentary on the 0-1's ;)

If the book simply lists commentary on 6's and above, how is it any different than a Golf Digest places to play, all with glowing commentary.

Examples?
Machrie?  4 .......nuff said, but I'll go on ;)
Pacific Grove 4-.....if there was no commentary, you wouldn't know to play the back nine
Dunaverty 2    That's right a 2!!!  Players spending several days near Machrihanish would be DAFT to miss an afternoon at this place
Shiskine 2... pretty unique and fun place to play golf

The point is The CG initially brought these to my attention and the commentary piqued my interest.

Do you really need a guide to tell you about Muirfield, NGLA, and St. Andrews
The unique and (formerly) lesser known gems, as well as Tom's commentary, are what made this book a must have originally, not a
list of trophy courses...IMHO

+1... Every word of it

Tom Allen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2013, 11:29:42 AM »
First Choice:  E, as an iOS App.  Like I assume many of us do, I take my iPad everywhere.  It would be great to have your guide as an app, especially with the photos.  It would make great plane reading, on the way to your next buddies trip, etc.

Second Choice: C.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2013, 11:37:58 AM »
If the book were to exclude the 0-5's one would miss many enjoyable courses as well as some of the best commentary on the 0-1's ;)

If the book simply lists commentary on 6's and above, how is it any different than a Golf Digest places to play, all with glowing commentary.

Examples?
Machrie?  4 .......nuff said, but I'll go on ;)
Pacific Grove 4-.....if there was no commentary, you wouldn't know to play the back nine
Dunaverty 2    That's right a 2!!!  Players spending several days near Machrihanish would be DAFT to miss an afternoon at this place
Shiskine 2... pretty unique and fun place to play golf

The point is The CG initially brought these to my attention and the commentary piqued my interest.

Do you really need a guide to tell you about Muirfield, NGLA, and St. Andrews
The unique and (formerly) lesser known gems, as well as Tom's commentary, are what made this book a must have originally, not a
list of trophy courses...IMHO

Jeff -

I said something similar higher up on this thread. Tom needs to keep the snarkiness of the original CG. Most of that snarkiness was directed at the lowest rated courses. If "C" is the only way to include them in a traditonal book format, then "C" is the way to go.

Bob

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #132 on: February 06, 2013, 11:40:32 AM »
If the book were to exclude the 0-5's one would miss many enjoyable courses as well as some of the best commentary on the 0-1's ;)

If the book simply lists commentary on 6's and above, how is it any different than a Golf Digest places to play, all with glowing commentary.

Examples?
Machrie?  4 .......nuff said, but I'll go on ;)
Pacific Grove 4-.....if there was no commentary, you wouldn't know to play the back nine
Dunaverty 2    That's right a 2!!!  Players spending several days near Machrihanish would be DAFT to miss an afternoon at this place
Shiskine 2... pretty unique and fun place to play golf

The point is The CG initially brought these to my attention and the commentary piqued my interest.

Do you really need a guide to tell you about Muirfield, NGLA, and St. Andrews
The unique and (formerly) lesser known gems, as well as Tom's commentary, are what made this book a must have originally, not a
list of trophy courses...IMHO

Jeff -

I said something similar higher up on this thread. Tom needs to keep the snarkiness of the original CG. Most of that snarkiness was directed at the lowest rated courses. If "C" is the only way to include them in a traditonal book format, then "C" is the way to go.

Bob

I concur.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #133 on: February 06, 2013, 12:45:46 PM »
Without Question E if you are only going to do 1.


I am wrestling with how best to present the new edition of The Confidential Guide.

There are so many courses to include that if I try to fit everything in one book, and include some pictures, it will become one of those Encyclopedic books that you can't even pick up.  (The last edition was close to my weight limit, and there are many many more courses to include this time around.)  Not sure I want to go there.

So, if you had a vote, which of these forms do you think would be best?

(a)  A single color-photo edition like the 1996 Sleeping Bear Press edition, large and heavy and pretty

(b)  All one edition, but no photos, to keep down size and cost (like the 1994 limited edition)

(c)  Multiple regional editions (2 or 3 or 4), color w/photos

(d)  Multiple regional editions (maybe as many as 10-12), no photos, trying to keep them pocket-sized to carry on travels

(e)  Not a book, but a CD or online subscription access, so there is space to search for everything and room for as many photos as I have.  Updatable in the future.


For (a) and (b) the courses scoring below 5 on the Doak scale would have to be excluded due to space constraints.  For other options, there would be room for every course I've ever seen, and then some!

Please vote for one or two choices you prefer.  And, please note, this is what they call in politics a "non-binding referendum" :)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #134 on: September 27, 2017, 11:41:08 AM »
Since Tom is riding is horse to many, many towns these days, it would seem he has seen more courses not included in a volume of the CG or that he has seen some courses for the first time in many years.  So...is there going to be CG e update?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #135 on: September 27, 2017, 12:05:53 PM »
No question it's "C" for me.  Chop them into smaller books (Germany/France/Netherlands) (Rest of Europe) (OZ/NZ) (rest of Asia). But keep them in the same great style and quality as the first books. And then add a limited edition book at the end with more of a photobook from you travels, copies of your itinineraries etc).


I think you might be underestimating how long these books will be the golf standard for GCA review Tom. Take your time and finish strong, no matter how many editions or subsets need to be included.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #136 on: September 27, 2017, 01:30:59 PM »
Since Tom is riding is horse to many, many towns these days, it would seem he has seen more courses not included in a volume of the CG or that he has seen some courses for the first time in many years.  So...is there going to be CG e update?



Sean:


Since there will not be a volume of the Guide to publish until next fall, I'm thinking strongly of producing an email update of what I've seen in the past couple of years, for the subscribers who have signed on for the full set.


Actually, I'm doing more than thinking of it strongly, it's mostly written; I just have to decide how much to include from courses that would be "sneak previews" of Volumes 4 and 5.  And put it together with some pictures, of course.


Hopefully you will see it in your inbox around Christmas or New Year's.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #137 on: September 27, 2017, 01:45:39 PM »
Since Tom is riding is horse to many, many towns these days, it would seem he has seen more courses not included in a volume of the CG or that he has seen some courses for the first time in many years.  So...is there going to be CG e update?



Sean:


Since there will not be a volume of the Guide to publish until next fall, I'm thinking strongly of producing an email update of what I've seen in the past couple of years, for the subscribers who have signed on for the full set.


Actually, I'm doing more than thinking of it strongly, it's mostly written; I just have to decide how much to include from courses that would be "sneak previews" of Volumes 4 and 5.  And put it together with some pictures, of course.


Hopefully you will see it in your inbox around Christmas or New Year's.

An e-mail update would be super cool! I would love that.
H.P.S.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #138 on: September 27, 2017, 02:38:41 PM »
Since Tom is riding is horse to many, many towns these days, it would seem he has seen more courses not included in a volume of the CG or that he has seen some courses for the first time in many years.  So...is there going to be CG e update?



Sean:


Since there will not be a volume of the Guide to publish until next fall, I'm thinking strongly of producing an email update of what I've seen in the past couple of years, for the subscribers who have signed on for the full set.


Actually, I'm doing more than thinking of it strongly, it's mostly written; I just have to decide how much to include from courses that would be "sneak previews" of Volumes 4 and 5.  And put it together with some pictures, of course.


Hopefully you will see it in your inbox around Christmas or New Year's.


Fantastic idea!
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Ben Malach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #139 on: September 27, 2017, 04:14:06 PM »
One other solution would be to create and app or creating a simple website that also for easy updating and access. This solution allows for a more subscription based model creating a more steady stream of revenue to support and aid in  the creation of new content.


The move to an online platform I also believe would also be beneficial to the full filament of the purpose of the guide. Which is to facilitate the finding and playing of new courses by the user. The books are wonderful and amazing objects that should still be produced as sign posts in the series. But the move to online will allow for more users to access the information from the book when traveling. Which increases the value of the content ion my opinion.


The shift away from a set publishing schedule would also allow for the a more seamless updating of the guide. As you, Masa, Ran and Darius would be free to update or add reviews without having to create and addendum or some other type of publication. This shift would allow for a more open ended approach to producing the guides.


Let me know if you need any help with anything.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #140 on: September 28, 2017, 05:19:59 AM »
One other solution would be to create and app or creating a simple website that also for easy updating and access. This solution allows for a more subscription based model creating a more steady stream of revenue to support and aid in  the creation of new content.


The move to an online platform I also believe would also be beneficial to the full filament of the purpose of the guide. Which is to facilitate the finding and playing of new courses by the user. The books are wonderful and amazing objects that should still be produced as sign posts in the series. But the move to online will allow for more users to access the information from the book when traveling. Which increases the value of the content ion my opinion.


The shift away from a set publishing schedule would also allow for the a more seamless updating of the guide. As you, Masa, Ran and Darius would be free to update or add reviews without having to create and addendum or some other type of publication. This shift would allow for a more open ended approach to producing the guides.


Let me know if you need any help with anything.


Ben:


I have explored this, but only a little bit.  I certainly agree with you that it could be useful.


The bottom line is, apps are fairly expensive to develop, and the market for the Guide is limited.  [We have sold a few thousand of each book in the series so far.]  So it would be a fairly expensive gamble to develop the app.  We'd have to believe in having an ability to sell it to a lot of people or to be able to charge a premium price ... and of course, if it wasn't 100% secure, then we'd never be able to sell another book because people would just "borrow" what they needed when they needed it.


P.S.  Also, the more "seamless" the updating, the more demand there would be on the editor to keep up with it all  :)

thomaslaffont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #141 on: September 30, 2017, 07:06:51 AM »
Tom,


My vote would be for a Zagat-like internet-based subscription service that would offer content in real-time to users. Similar to what Robert Parker does for wine. As subscribers join, more could be invested in content. Certainly a service I wish existed and would happily join.


Thomas

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2017, 10:26:24 AM »
Option E.


On-line access to the information allows you to continuously update and expand the information, without having to print, store, and ship new versions. It also allows you to provide unlimited photos, videos, commentary, and data.  Even a discussion forum for your customers would be an option. You would have the option to explore and expand both content and format over time.


A web version would cover all forms of access devices and operating systems, while Apple and Android apps would appeal to many.


Annual subscriptions would seem the best revenue stream, as the content would be expanding, vs. a one-time price for a print book. It also allows you to adjust pricing over time.

Print media is all but dead, and CDs are also at end of life.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 10:28:34 AM by Dave Doxey »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-binding Referendum - Form of the New Confidential Guide
« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2017, 01:52:26 PM »

Print media is all but dead, and CDs are also at end of life.



Very accurate, and somehow you managed to post from a typewriter....impressive!
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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