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Sean_A

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Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC New
« on: September 19, 2017, 07:00:32 AM »


Pine Needles was always meant to be the stern younger brother of Mid Pines and indeed the resort lived up to that promise under the guidance of Peggy Kirk Bell by hosting three US Women’s Opens in the unprecedented span of 11 years between 1996 and 2007.  Make no mistake, to a large degree that first Open was a tribute to Bell’s work in golf.  Anyone remotely familiar with her career will know she was a strong advocate of the game and in particular the role of women in golf.  Ownership of Pine Needles Lodge & GC for more than 60 years is testament to these facts. Mrs Bell started one of the first golf schools in the country, was a founding member of the LPGA and served as Honorary Chairwoman of the Peggy Kirk Bell Girls Golf Tour which was founded in 2007.  An unsurpassed link to golf’s rich past was lost when Mrs Bell died in November of 2016. 

After the great success of Pinehurst and with the backing of many northern investors who were well acquainted with Pinehurst (including HH Rackham, the famed Detroit businessmen and philanthropist who previously engaged Ross to design the public Rackham course in the Detroit suburb of Huntington Woods) the Tufts family purchased a 5200 acre parcel of heavily wooded and hilly land about 4 miles east of Pinehurst in Southern Pines.  Knollwood was planned as a 36 hole (possibly more) housing development complex and recreation area.  The development included the grand Pine Needles Inn which still stands behind the 2nd tee of Pine Needles though today it is called St Joseph of the Pines....a senior health care home.   Aiding the budding club, which was meant to be a getaway from the busy Pinehurst Resort, was the nearby train station and Donald Ross designed courses (he also was on the Knollwood Board of Directors).  All seemed aligned for success if not for the onslaught of the Great Depression.  To ease the strain on the Pinehurst Resort, Knollwood was sold.  In 1953 Pine Needles was purchased by Warren and Peggy Kirk Bell.  The Bells also acquired Mid Pines in the early 1990s and thus the two courses were reunited under a sole ownership and one of the great American golf resorts was fully realized.   

Opened one year shy of the Great Depression, it is a wonder the Donald Ross designed Pine Needles survived, but survive it did!  Pine Needles Lodge & GC has done so well recently that it is currently in the finishing stages of a Kyle Franz renovation.  Kyle is no stranger to work in the Sand Hills as he was responsible for the award winning renovation of neighbouring Mid Pines in 2013. Besides a wealth of experience on many well received courses, Kyle also worked on some of the best courses in the world which include Pinehurst #2, Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle.  Always a fine course, but Kyle’s touch gave Mid Pines an essential lacking ingredient, being of and in the Sand Hills.  Prior to the renovation Mid Pines could have been in any southeastern location, now Mid Pines is unmistakably a Sand Hills course.   

By the time Pine Needles was designed and constructed, Ross was a master of his craft and he better understood how to tease more natural shaping from his Frank Maples (he was essentially the construction foreman for all the Ross courses around Pinehurst) led crew in a more efficient manner than for previous projects.  It is remarkable that with very few tweaks Ross was able to unveil this remarkable design as a finished product in 1928.  To this day Pine Needles remains one of Ross’ best and most revered courses.

The opening par 5 makes a strong argument for the best hole on the course.  Drifting right, up and over a rise, this is as good an opener as one will hope to find. 


The green reveals itself from the rear. The bunker in view is beautifully tied to the green.


Amazingly, the ornate St Joseph of the Pines stands proudly behind the the 2nd tee.  That is D Ross teeing off.


The second offers a speed slot down the left, but approaching from the right may be a better option to access hole locations...pick your poison.  With morning shadows obscuring the view, it wasn't clear the green runs away from play.  Thankfully, with a bit of experience it is possible to bump shots up to the greens.


I am rarely taken by short holes over water, but the simple beauty of the 3rd is smashing.  The extension of the pine needles to the back left bunker completes the picture.  The green was extended a bit to the rear right and is meant to be a Sunday hole location.


Playing over water in a similar manner to the 10th, the carry on #4 is deceptively long and the left bunker is just about where one wants to be! Once again, details such as the pine needles crowding the bunker create a far more natural scene.


The steep uphill approach is the only one of this sort at Pine Needles. 


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 02:36:27 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Carl Rogers

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-4
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2017, 07:12:24 AM »
There is a routing map in the clubhouse that indicates the now Hole No. 1 as Hole No. 2 and the now Hole 18 as Hole No. 1.  Hidden history here?
Also, the Halfway House is after the now Hole No. 8, (Hole No. 9 on that Old Routing Map)  which would have made the course very close to a returning nines to the implied clubhouse of that old routing map.
I wonder what happened?  Did the Ms. Bell want the entrance to course opposite Mid Pines from Midland Rd. (which is more of the main street)?  And/or did the neighborhood want to avoid the all of auto traffic to the clubhouse?  Pine Needles has an attractive practice / teaching area in its present location and perhaps that much property was unavailable relative to the start and stop of the course from that old routing map?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 07:31:51 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sean_A

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-4
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2017, 07:33:47 AM »
Carl

I can only surmise that the current 2nd was the original 1st, but I don't know how that jives with the map.  When the Bell's bought the property I suspect the old clubhouse was not for sale, in a bad state of repair or generally unaffordable as part of the deal. Its a great shame as the building is magnficent. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 07:44:08 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Tim Passalacqua

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-4
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 03:03:09 PM »
Carl

I can only surmise that the current 2nd was the original 1st, but I don't know how that jives with the map.  When the Bell's bought the property I suspect the old clubhouse was not for sale, in a bad state of repair or generally unaffordable as part of the deal. Its a great shame as the building is magnficent. 

Ciao


Sean,


I am pretty sure that #18 was the original #1.  This came up when we were playing the course and the member filled us in on the routing before everything was built down the hill on the property.  I am glad they changed it.  I love #1 as the opener.  Going for the par five in 2 with that deep cross bunker staring at you.......lots of fun!

Ira Fishman

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-4
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 04:18:26 PM »
I am glad to see No 1 getting some applause; it tends to get overlooked.  I think Nos. 6 or 14 are the best holes, but No. 1 is great.  It properly introduces you to all of the elements at Pine Needles--need to understand the land and bunkering for strategy and to appreciate where not to miss the greens. 


Ira

Jay Mickle

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-4
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2017, 09:36:34 PM »

Sean,

I am pretty sure that #18 was the original #1.  This came up when we were playing the course and the member filled us in on the routing before everything was built down the hill on the property.  I am glad they changed it.  I love #1 as the opener.  Going for the par five in 2 with that deep cross bunker staring at you.......lots of fun!


You are correct Tim, hence the halfway house is after the original ninth. The magnificent St. Joseph of the Pines was the original Pine Needles Hotel.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-4
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 11:12:49 PM »
Thanks, Sean - especially because there are some course, like Pine Needles & Mid Pines in NC and The Loop in Michigan, that I do can (realistically) hope to play one day.

You reference re: the 3rd and the 10th not only how water hazards can work well, but how "simple beauty" and a "natural scene" --- far from being 'eye candy' -- can instead integrate with, be essential to, and impact on a course's playability.

It's a good insight, and an important one. I've tried to raise it before, but you raise it very clearly here, and with examples.

I'm not the first to suggest that one of the many reasons for Tom D's success is his/his team's ability to create natural beauty that also not only appears to but actually does serve a strategic function.

I mention Renaissance because, to my eye, through photos only, they lead the pack in getting it just right - i.e. the beauty and naturalism and scale is unforced and in proportion and not for its own sake (as mistake, IMO, that some make on one end of the spectrum); and at the same time the strategic choices and options are not overdone, too busy, or too obvious (the mistake on the other end of the spectrum).

Clearly, Mr Ross (and Kyle Franz) managed to achieve that same elusive balance here. Very rare that a North American course appeals to me so directly and immediately as does an English course. 

Thanks again, amigo


Peter         
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 11:31:53 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-4 New
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2017, 06:25:12 AM »
Pietro

I am dumbfounded that the essence of the "Sand Hills look" was ever allowed to disappear.  Its as if people forgot about a sense of place for these designs.  In the case of Mid Pines, Pine Needles and #2, the rejuvenated Sand Hills look is aesthetically superior and makes for a more enjoyable round...which in my opinion makes them better courses.  That said, in the case of #2 the course is miles better than the version I saw previously. I wish I never played the old #2 because first impressions cannot be erased. People should be writing letters to Coore & Crenshaw to thank them for showing (via the advent of Dormie Club) the good Sand Hills folks what they had hidden under a blanket of grass and trees.   

Jay (aka Shades)

I spose the house must have been fairly close to the Inn.  Do you know if the Inn stayed connected with the course when Tufts sold the land and if so, was it common to tee off on the current second?

PINE NEEDLES CONT

We face another one-shotter in the fifth.  The hole looks fairly straightforward, but the green puts any such notions to rest. Visually, the green gives us the false front, but it doesn't appear to dramatically dive toward the front right corner until after chips and putts are hit.


I reckon the clue concerning the flow of the green should be picked up by the shoulders front right (left in this photo).


Driving blindly over a crest, the 6th then slips downhill to a fairly small green.  Franz built a wee knob back left (protecting the hole location pictured) to catchout the overly aggressive approach.


The 7th too features a blind drive though plenty is on view from the tee.  The green is severely sloped back to front making it difficult to access a rear hole location.  Though I wonder if there are any viable hole locations on the front half of the putting surface.  Regardless, the open green is a good change of pace. 


One of my favourite holes, the 8th is of a modest length playing through a valley.  Play from the back tee, as is often the case, is much tougher.  In this case, it is mainly due to the line rather than the length.




It is no great surprise the green runs back to front.  This predictability when encountering uphill approaches is perhaps one of the worst apects of archies who favour many uphill approaches in their designs. 


I also like the 9th quite a bit.  The hole is in essence much like any other at Pine Needles except for the shaping short of the green I crave to see.  To avoid playing over the dip one must keep centre-left.  I reckon if this sort of undulation doesn't exist archies should if at all possible create it. Franz carved out an area feeding to the left bunker which isn't pictured.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:34:16 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Carl Rogers

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-9
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2017, 07:18:02 AM »
Sean,
Agreed the 8th & 9th are my favorites at PN.  The 5th is a hard hard one shotter.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

David Whitmer

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-9
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2017, 12:56:16 PM »
I found Pine Needles to be similar to the Raynor courses I have played (Camargo, Shoreacres) in that, if you are playing well, you will most likely shoot a good score. That to me is what makes the game fun. Pine Needles won't kick your butt unless you show up with your "D" or worse game. Combine the golf course with a beautiful part of the country, and my rounds at Pine Needles rank among my favorite times spent playing golf. For me personally, I mean that as a huge compliment.

mike_beene

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-9
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 09:35:33 PM »
I really like the angled ridges that make great speed slots if you can hit in the right place. Six is a great example. Is there a more fun tee shot course anywhere?

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-9
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2017, 02:08:56 AM »
Looks lovely.


Sean, do you think that the Sand Hills look was allowed to disappear because it takes more effort to keep it than to lose it?


In other words, do less work on a course in sand and it will succeed / morph to all grass and vegetation over time.


Sean_A

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-9 New
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2017, 05:27:09 AM »
David

For some reason I found myself in many awkward positions...many times after hitting a well struck shot which was ill-advised due to inexperience.  Its a quick way to learn the course!  It is very easy to get on the bogey train and not feel like you hitting the ball poorly.  But you are right, Pine Needles isn't a butt kicker.

Ally

I suspect a combo of easier maintenance and keeping up with the latest style were the reasons Pine Needles was allowed to drift away from being a proper Sand Hills course, but I don't know.  If Jay checks in he can likely better answer your question.

PINE NEEDLES CONT

The dogleg 10th is the one hole which doesn't suit my eye. The water hazard, while looking very similar to old pix of the hole, looks contrived.  The hole itself is alright, though my playing partner thinks the green is not of the Pine Needles variety.  I didn't quite understand what he meant by that.


Keeping with the theme of doglegs, the right legging 11th is another beautiful hole.  It doesn't appear to be the case, but there is a huge expanse of fairway between the waste areas down the right.  Often times this can be the best place to approach the green.


Between the waste areas!  The green is interesting as it appears to be floating on the landscape....this is very reminiscent of some greens at Palmetto...I course I have loads of time for. 


A bit of a sleeper hole, the 12th is good while not being a hole which will burn itself into one's memory.  This is perhaps one of the best ways to describe Pine Needles.  Folks talk about courses being better than their individual parts and I think this is true for Pine Needles.  I am pressed to pick a hole which I think is an All-Carolina candidate, but that hardly matters as the feeling of playing good, honest golf in a graceful setting should be more than enough to satisify all.


Ciao
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:36:01 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Matt MacIver

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-12
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2017, 06:36:28 AM »
Thanks Sean, looking forward to the last holes.  Your comment "good, honest golf" sums it up for me at PN.  I welcome playing it but don't have that GCA urge to "rush back to the first tee" as I do across the street.  I do think the recovery/renovation work by Kyle is being well done, and received. 


I do think T-Road led the charge back to the "natural" look in and around Pinehurst, and the region (and #2) was led down the ANGC path in the '70-80s along with the rest of us.  Great to see "great big world" theory coming back into vogue. 


I think #18 at PN is a great finishing hole, for the drive, the second, the green complex and the setting. 

Carl Rogers

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-12
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2017, 07:18:32 AM »
I am interested in Sean's comments on Hole 15.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jay Mickle

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-9
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2017, 09:11:08 PM »
In other words, do less work on a course in sand and it will succeed / morph to all grass and vegetation over time.


Ally,
I believe that you are spot on. The Bermuda grass spreads at an astonishing rate. Looking at photos of  Mid Pines #18 immediately post restoration another from this past Spring it was evident that considerable waste area had been reclaimed by Bermuda. Continued vigilance is required maintain the Sandhills look. Thankfully Kyle has been around to oversee his project.

@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

David_Madison

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-12
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2017, 09:44:52 PM »
Sean,


As your playing partner for your round at Pine Needles, let me explain my thoughts on #10 green. The green looks, feels, and plays substantially different from all of the other greens on the course, far more manufactured and forced than the natural flowing greens that more typically meld into the prevailing landscape at the other holes.

My understanding is that this green was relocated some 50+ yards from the original Ross green, and of course would have been designed and built at a later time than the rest of the greens and by different people. The green is shaped differently, with internal contouring that is harsher and less natural than the other greens, feeling more like a green that Jack Nicklaus or a Jones would do than the softer, more natural flowing greens that we more typically see from Donald Ross. The relationship of the fronting right-side bunker to the green is different as well. The fall-offs into the surrounds look far more manufactured, versus what we see otherwise thought the course with the greens more typically flowing with the general terrain.

Moving away from this green to more general thoughts on our round, I thoroughly enjoyed teeing it up with you and experiencing your enjoyment of the course and the day as you rediscovered this gem. It was tremendous fun watching you and experiencing your growing enthusiasm as you worked your way around hole by hole.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 10:01:10 PM by David_Madison »

BCowan

Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-12
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2017, 09:31:08 PM »
Sean,


   In response to Mid Pines and the renovations at these 3 Sandhills courses. Improved agronomy is really a large factor in these courses. I've played MP in the early 90s and #2 in late 90s and they were both excellent. I think possibly u need more then 1 play at courses for u missed the greatness of Franklin hills. MP greens now play as functioned due to proper firmness.  PN and MP need tree removal.  There are some Ross experts who do not like the sand scrub look and feel it's non Ross esc. 


Anyhow the 1 2 punch of PN and MP is top shelf.  I think MP has the most potential of the 3. 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 09:34:56 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Sean_A

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-12 New
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2017, 07:34:29 AM »
David

What you say makes sense. For mine, the entire hole doesn't settle well with me. 

I too enjoyed the day!

Ben

For sure, more plays almost always leads to better understanding a course.  However, there is only so much time in life...or so I am told.

I am on the fence with Franklin Hills so opted for "lower grade" as is usually the case for me. More plays would be beneficial in spying the greens a bit more...this is the area of the design which I found disappointing...well that and the finish is a bit weak...especially 16 & 17. 

I agree, better bermuda strains have made a whale of a difference at PN and MP, but most especially #2.  For mine, the gap between how #s plays and a links is now significantly narrowed.  But that has as much to do with no rough as the quicker playing surface.  I do think the sandy waste areas should have come across fairways here and there to really make the concept work well. While #2 doesn't really do this, the shape of the waste areas make for more interesting tee shots than either PN or MP. 

PINE NEEDLES CONT

The left sand work on the 13th was completed only days prior to my visit.  However, what really stands out for this hole is how the green breaks out of trees for a more open look than many holes. 


The only really serious climb to a tee comes at the 14th.  A tough legger right, the green while slightly raised is very attractive for its grade level setting.




More to follow.

Ciao

« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:38:47 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

David_Madison

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-14
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2017, 10:29:24 PM »
Sean - you raise an interesting point about desiring to see the sandy waste areas crossing into the fairways, I assume at #2 as well as at PN and MP. My understanding is that while having some crossing hazards of this type may be interesting, they weren't in Donald Ross' plans or designs. As the restorations of the courses was done with an attempt to retain or bring back as much of the original architecture as possible, adding cross hazards would have been too big a departure from what was there originally.

I'm curious about your opinion as to which you believe is a more interesting or better driving course, #2 or Pine Needles.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC 1-14 New
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2017, 07:40:48 PM »
David

Yes, I understand the restorations were meant to be more in the spirit of Ross design/intent rather than a free for all attempt at creating a "new" course. 

From comparable tees of just under 6000 yards with my length of tee shot of ~225-250 with roll-out I would have to say #2 is the much tougher driving course over Pine Needles.  I suspect that what I experienced at #2 was something akin to what Open players had in 2014...#2 is filled with pinch points.  PN is more open off the tee...something I suspect C&C were looking for at #2...an added 10ish yards of width...which I think would make for a more interesting round of tempting play into the pinch points rather than not taking on the risk.  On the other hand, the waste areas often aren't that bad and do allow some opportunity for recovery.  Bottom line, #2 is a much more difficult course which shouldn't be surprising. 

PINE NEEDLES CONT

The last three-shot hole, #15 is fairly straightforward though there is a well placed bunker 60ish yards short left of the the raised green.


The short 16th, as is the case with all the 3s, a fine hole.
   

The beautiful setting hides the true nature of this very difficult hole. The effective green size isn't overly generous.


The 17th is by far the worst hole on the course and what a pity.  I am keen on formidable penultimate holes, but the stark dogleg left requiring a precise placement tee shot only serves to unduly reward long hitters who can cut the corner with more lofted clubs.  I have come across holes like this previously on Ross courses so he did seem to give the concept some merit; though I am unsure as to why.  Fortunately, the closer is one of the best holes.  Originally the first, the hole swings left and downhill to an open green aspect.  For sure this par 4 leaves a very good impression and whets the whistle for drinks in the charming bar.  One can see in the 1st photo that work is still ongoing.




More evidence that going long is not advisable.


It is difficult to explain how much my opinion of Pine Needles improved after seeing the course again.  The last time I played Pine Needles was not long after the Fought restoration which I thought was hit and miss except for the excellent conditions.  The Kyle Franz work reluctantly tempted me back, but I should not have had any reservations.  The improvements recently carried out have made a world of difference in that the entire puzzle is now complete whereas before it seemed as if too many pieces were missing.  It can be said that Pine Needles has joined the Sand Hills Family.  This is fitting because the resort is family owned and I have heard remarks that this tighter sense of community is in marked contrast to the more corporate Pinehurst Resort.   1* 2017

Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/pine-needles/

Mid Pines
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57154.0.html

Dormie Club
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57154.0.html

#2
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65082.0.html

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:39:59 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2017, 08:04:11 PM »
Great review as always. Thanks for posting.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Carl Rogers

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Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2017, 08:42:25 PM »
Sean & et al,
My 3 rounds at PN left me with the weakness of the course is  hole 15. The first time player at PN will not realize that going long at 16 is not a good shot.


That and the harder walk endeared me more to MP across the street.  MP is probably a couple of strokes easier... maybe that is why I like it better.


You and others can talk me out of it.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

BCowan

Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2017, 08:56:27 PM »
Sean,


I think 10 and 14 are the weekest holes at PN by far. The 17 is a great hole in teaching restraint off the tee and requires shaping off the tee.  Also I think PN is 3-5 shots easier then MP.  Much easier approaches into PN.  I totally disagree with ur assessment of 16 at Franklin. It pimps the 17 at OHCC S for a long Par 3.  17 of course is the red headed step child at Franklin.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pining For PINE NEEDLES LODGE & GC
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2017, 05:14:15 AM »
Carl

There is no need to talk you out of anything.  Both PN and MP are class courses.  To me MP is slightly the better course, but I just might prefer PN.  Regardless, the gap between the two has been drastically reduced.  If forced to Doak them I would go MP 7 and PN 6 so I am in general conformity with the Conf Guide. 

I am perplexed, what is so awful about 15? 

Ben

Interesting, to me 14 is the far better version of the sharp dogleg.  I am never going to fall for a hole (17) which essentially requires a lay-up off the tee then puts a wood in your hand.  To me, this feels like the hole ran out of space.  Of course, technology is likely the real culprit.

Sweeney - cheers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

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