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Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bunkerless courses
« on: September 21, 2017, 02:31:42 PM »
Five Of The Best Bunkerless Courses
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/courses/uk-and-ireland/five-of-the-best-bunkerless-courses-142514


Nice article endorsing the qualities that can be found without bunkers for a change of pace.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 03:06:20 PM »
Some nice reminders.
If the author had browsed GCA however, he would have found quite a few more candidates, some probably better than the one's he highlighted.
Atb

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 03:15:11 PM »
Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO by Jim Engh.  In place of bunkers, there are strategically-placed scrub bushes and shale mounds.  It totally works, and the shale rock is soft enough to play from if you get in there.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 11:28:48 PM »
Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO by Jim Engh.  In place of bunkers, there are strategically-placed scrub bushes and shale mounds.  It totally works, and the shale rock is soft enough to play from if you get in there.


Nice call.  Never played there, but looked at some pics and I really like the look.  There's something to be said for a course just being grass and what was there originally.  Not trucking in tons of sand from somewhere else to build bunkers.  Plus this I like the abscence of Engh's "squiggle" bunkers (I am an Engh fan, btw).
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 02:12:28 PM »
I was playing The Loop this morning, and noted several really good greens that are not dependent on bunkers at all - 2, 3, 4, 5, 13, 14, and 17 on the Red course.  But a lot of those greens get overlooked because they don't have any bunkers to punctuate them.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2017, 02:17:19 PM »
I was playing The Loop this morning, and noted several really good greens that are not dependent on bunkers at all - 2, 3, 4, 5, 13, 14, and 17 on the Red course.  But a lot of those greens get overlooked because they don't have any bunkers to punctuate them.
So... is that a good thing or a bad thing?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2017, 02:44:35 PM »
I was playing The Loop this morning, and noted several really good greens that are not dependent on bunkers at all - 2, 3, 4, 5, 13, 14, and 17 on the Red course.  But a lot of those greens get overlooked because they don't have any bunkers to punctuate them.


Interesting. I always thought 14 at ANGC was one of the best greens (at least as it appeared as a spectator) on the course. I would guess for the average Joe, that green, and hole gets overlooked because it falls between 13 and 15.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2017, 02:46:53 PM »
Sand bunkers are photogenic.
Went to volcanic Iceland recently. Wonderful place, more varities of lava than there are Heinz soups.
Observed a bunch of courses.
Some had both traditional white/yellow sand bunkers and local black sand waste type areas. Some had just local black sand in the bunkers and waste areas.
Guess which visually stood out more, especially when viewed later in photos....unfortunately the white/yellow ones. Kind of a shame.
Three top courses in the U.K. without sand bunkers - Kington, Welshpool and Minchinhampton Old. The beloved by some Painswick is also bunkerless, although there's one on the practice area!


Some previous threads in the general subject -


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,846.0.html


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,11891.msg196201.html#msg196201


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38977.0.html


Atb

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 05:17:51 PM »
A question as an aside:  Given that courses like Pine Valley are surrounded by sand, are the greenside bunkers still native sand or have they been changed to a better "performing" sand?  I assume and hope that the general waste areas are still native...


I guess I could ask Tom Doak the same question about The Loop?  There's lots of available sand on that site, but was a different sand chosen for the bunkers?  Greens bunkers different sand from fairway bunkers?
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2017, 07:36:28 PM »
I guess I could ask Tom Doak the same question about The Loop?  There's lots of available sand on that site, but was a different sand chosen for the bunkers?  Greens bunkers different sand from fairway bunkers?


The sand in the bunkers at The Loop is just the native sand, but it all had to be screened for gravel and stones and then put back into the bunkers.  We tried to leave some "native" bunkers with unscreened sand but they are way too rocky for most people's tastes.


[The greens mix is the same screened native sand.]

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2017, 07:37:29 PM »
I was playing The Loop this morning, and noted several really good greens that are not dependent on bunkers at all - 2, 3, 4, 5, 13, 14, and 17 on the Red course.  But a lot of those greens get overlooked because they don't have any bunkers to punctuate them.
So... is that a good thing or a bad thing?


I don't know.  I guess I was posting to see how others felt.  Most architects, and most clients, would prefer not to have holes "overlooked".  For years now the standard has been to have 18 "postcard" holes.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2017, 08:33:21 PM »
I was playing The Loop this morning, and noted several really good greens that are not dependent on bunkers at all - 2, 3, 4, 5, 13, 14, and 17 on the Red course.  But a lot of those greens get overlooked because they don't have any bunkers to punctuate them.
So... is that a good thing or a bad thing?


I don't know.  I guess I was posting to see how others felt.  Most architects, and most clients, would prefer not to have holes "overlooked".  For years now the standard has been to have 18 "postcard" holes.
Not exactly sure how to ask this, but... could bunkers be added to any of those holes without lessening the impact of what is there without the bunkers?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2017, 08:36:49 PM »
TD - I'm glad they are there, those bunker-less greens. I'm very glad you built The Loop. It's not a stretch (or flattery) to predict that in years to come the reputation/regard for those "overlooked" greens and for the course as a whole will just keep rising. We talk often here about courses that reward multiple plays and that stand the test of time. Well, one of the ways those goals are achieved (though not a very common way, these days) is via a golf course that doesn't immediately jump to the top of the ranking lists, and to create golf holes that don't automatically impress or get raved about. It stands to reason, doesn't it? If a course/golf holes actually do have depth and subtlety and hidden charms, those qualities simply will not be recognized by first timers or hit-and-runners; and even astute and thoughtful observers (especially those who have played your other, more 'dramatic' golf courses) will likely first notice/focus on what The Loop doesn't do instead of what it does do. But that's okay, particularly at this point in your career; you've earned the right to be patient, and the reputation that will sustain/protect The Loop just as it is, for years to come. (Sadly, if you were a first time architect early in his career, I don't think a course like The Loop would be given a chance to show its true worth over time). I'm telling you: while whatever course Ian A was talking about in his "pandering" thread will see it stock fall in years to come, as the conventional wisdom/consensus opinion catches up to Ian's current POV, The Loop's understated qualities will be more and more appreciated. IMO, looking back you'll be particularly proud that a course like The Loop is part of your portfolio/legacy.
Peter           
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:57:55 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2017, 09:47:16 PM »
Peter:  The courses and designs of which I am proud do not have a strict correlation with the ones that are most celebrated or appreciated, nor do I expect for that to change over time. 


Indeed with a few exceptions, I am about equally proud of the rest, because we made our best effort to build something unique and worthwhile.  They can't all overlook the ocean and be in the top 50, but that doesn't make them "lesser" in my view.  Places like St Andrews Beach and CommonGround and Aetna Springs really tickle me when I go back to see them.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2017, 04:06:35 AM »
From the maintenance perspective, what would the manpower/maintenance/re-construction/materials/equipment savings be if there were no sand bunkers? How much, say in % terms, would the annual Superintendents/H-G-k's budget be with no sand bunkers.
Design/construction savings as well for that matter?
atb

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2017, 11:20:06 AM »
From the maintenance perspective, what would the manpower/maintenance/re-construction/materials/equipment savings be if there were no sand bunkers? How much, say in % terms, would the annual Superintendents/H-G-k's budget be with no sand bunkers.
Design/construction savings as well for that matter?
atb


Approximately a billion dollars.


But seriously, more than you think. My course has 3 acres of bunkers (80 something in total), with flashed faces, some quite large.  To do a full hand rake you need approximately 4-5 guys in the greens, and 2-3 in the fairways with a sand pro.  So most days we only rake the bottoms and touch up the sides.  Furthermore, the grass faces of the bunkers need to be flymowed, and a lot of them have pop up irrigation around them that needs to be maintained.  Dandelions love grass bunker faces so you need to apply herbicides in the spring.  Plus during migration the elk love to fight/f--k/sleep in them so entire bunkers can basically be destroyed at night.  I could go on and on.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkerless courses
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2017, 12:07:11 PM »
From the maintenance perspective, what would the manpower/maintenance/re-construction/materials/equipment savings be if there were no sand bunkers? How much, say in % terms, would the annual Superintendents/H-G-k's budget be with no sand bunkers.
Design/construction savings as well for that matter?
atb
Approximately a billion dollars.
But seriously, more than you think. My course has 3 acres of bunkers (80 something in total), with flashed faces, some quite large.  To do a full hand rake you need approximately 4-5 guys in the greens, and 2-3 in the fairways with a sand pro.  So most days we only rake the bottoms and touch up the sides.  Furthermore, the grass faces of the bunkers need to be flymowed, and a lot of them have pop up irrigation around them that needs to be maintained.  Dandelions love grass bunker faces so you need to apply herbicides in the spring.  Plus during migration the elk love to fight/f--k/sleep in them so entire bunkers can basically be destroyed at night.  I could go on and on.
Thanks for the detailed examples at your course Bill.
Lots of activity usually equals lots of $£.
Atb

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