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Pat Burke

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Re: Most influential architecht
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2017, 12:44:48 PM »
At some point, it seems virtually every architect talks about going to Scotland and the rest of the U.K. To study the courses, in particular The Old Course.
CBM even wrote of it as I understand.


So, for architecture, I'd say Old Tom Morris.


For business, which is a different deal all together, probabably Jones

Tim Gallant

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Re: Most influential architecht
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2017, 02:41:25 PM »

 
And, as Sean suggests, said principles are to be found most clearly demonstrated in the work of Mr Colt. – and those principles are ?
 
Niall


Niall,


I'd like to know those principles as well.


Certainly, Colt with his sophisticated routings (Muirfield) had an influence on how courses were, and still are routed.


With respect to greens, I do feel his greens, or at least those I've seen, stand the test of time, both for their balance and their originality. What influence they have had subsequently is beyond my knowledge. Others will know better than I, but he could have been the first to implement the 2-tier green, with a ridge horizontal to play (I'm thinking specifically of 6 at Sunningdale New and 16 at Swinley Forest).


Adam, what books would you recommend if I wanted to read more about Colt?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Most influential architecht
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2017, 09:02:21 PM »
Niall - I'm sure you know Dr Mac's "13 Principles", so I won't include them here - especially because, while they are very sound and reflect my own tastes perfectly, they are not the the kind of "fundamentals" I'm talking about.

Here's one: based on something that Max Behr (I believe) wrote, but that Colt clearly knew:   
A *concave* slope/mounding leads inevitably to collection areas and to a kind of predictability that engenders boring and unimaginative golf; while a *convex* slope/mounding leads to the exact opposite, i.e. it ensures that no two shots will react in exactly the same way (as the golf ball can bound off in any number of directions/trajectories), and it gives the golfer an opportunity/option to try to use such convex slopes to his advantage when planning his shot.

And then there is, much more broadly, the underlying notion of fundamental principles that led to the following being written soon after Macdonald's NGLA opened for play (I've forgotten by whom):
“Here we have eighteen holes which constitute perfection, or as near thereto as it is possible to attain in any single course. A great deal of credit is due to Mr. Macdonald for providing such a classical links, which will ever remain a monument unto himself, and much good will be done to the game as a whole in the way of furnishing such a magnificent object lesson of what a first-class course should be…” (bolding, mine)

What did the writer back then mean by object lesson? Clearly he was referencing what we can 'templates' - the redans and edens and capes etc that Macdonald saw and valued at courses like St. Andrews, Prestwick, North Berwick, and Leven.  But these "templates", what are they? what do they reflect/embody? In my mind, they embody the the best and most basic and most time-tested "fundamentals" of golf course architecture.

Colt didn't use the "templates" the way CBM or Raynor did; but the fact that, as Sean notes, we can see in today's fine golf courses Colt's "style" and "approach" tells me that he was laying down back then the same fundamentals of quality gca that under-pin the "perfection" found at NGLA. 

Anyway, that's all I got - and I don't even have that!

Peter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:10:19 PM by Peter Pallotta »

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