[ed_getka]

I am curious to know how those who have played both would compare them. What are the strengths and weaknesses of each in your mind? Also, how would you compare the front 9 of Bayside to either?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ed,
While it is an examination of +'s and -'s, and I haven't played Wildhorse, I shouldn't really be particapting in this thread. However, knowing Dan & Dave, and knowing Hanse, Shackelford & Wagner, I know the effort these two groups put into anything they do in life in general, so I'll be bold and comment in that regard.

Plus, Dick Daley, one of the most passionate about Wildhorse would kill me if I didn't!:) It's his home course, and he lives what, some 1000 + miles away? Dick is truely to Wildhorse, what I am to Rustic Canyon--its biggest fan who has a intimate knowledge of how the course is run and how it was built.

So, on to me......

I have become a bit persnickety in my tastes in my later years. I know some of you might not think so:) but really, I have. I'm starting to hate to try to putting a numerical analysis on what I think is a GREAT course. Don't get me wrong, I like trying to make a difference for Golfweek and their rankings, but in the main scheme of things, tryingto chose which is a better course between Merion and Pine Valley is starting to become taxing on the ideals. Both are great, and why should one be greater then the other? I view them more as celebrations for their acheivements in design, and maybe Rich is right, by trying to establish a Michelin-like rating, it wouldn't make one better then the other-but it would acknowledge them for their architectural merits.

So, why shouldn't this be true for modern courses too. Lets face it, l totally love the fact that an obscure little public course in the middle of Nowhere, Nebraska is marching through the rankings of the Rank & File, and attracting the attention it deserves in the Modern Golf Movement. In fact, I hope it never stops.

And on the same page, Rustic Canyon, which for all intensive purposes, is behind enemy lines; fighting the good fight in a land that acknowledges "anything new is good, no matter if the course is unplayable or is on the side of a steep mountain." Rustic Canyon to me is a miracle. It breezed through all of the environmental impact studies. They found no endangered species; no cement rivers, etc. all on the most perfect canvas--a sandy soil, in a beautiful canyon that while playing in the early evening, is the perfect cocktail to avoid the urban sprawl.

So you see, trying to compare which course is more fast & firm; which has better greens or which course has better shot values and provides better resistence to scoring does get a bit ridiculous. I, try to see where these courses stack up against a Friars Head, Sand Hills, or Pacific Dunes, because do they compare in regards to experience then to design?  Absolutely! But if you were able, as a member of Friars Head or Sand Hills, or a employee of Bandon Dunes where you could play the course regularly and get to know them even more in depth, it would truely be a GREAT gift. But, that is a dream world.

Yet, Dick can if he wants, (if would ever move out of that frozen tundra!) experience Wildhorse everyday he wanted to play, or myself, where 98% of my rounds which are now are at Rustic Canyon seek our greatness in our own elements.

I can only view these elements as character builders that are to be celebrated at every moment. Thus the need for no ranking or comparison, more of an analysis of what it takes or in this case doesn't take, to make a course truely special.

I hope I'm making sense.

[ed_getka]

I'm not trying to rate them Tommy.  BTW, how is your back? We still have yet to play a round together.

On my latest trip I was more impressed by the front 9 at Bayside, than I was by Wild Horse. Dan and Dave do absolutely stunning bunker work which was in evidence at Bayside, WH, and Sand Hills. They do some really good greens here and there, but then some don't seem to tie in very well. I was most suprised by the back 9 at Bayside which is horrible in comparison to the front. 240 yd forced carries to a blind fairway, the width of a large par 3, with convex landing areas. This was on a few of the par 4's and 5's. There was a lovely punchbowl green on one hole with a shelf in the back which was pretty cool. #17 is a par 3 with a green along the lines of #13 at Kingsley Club, with a bunker in the middle to add to the drama.

Just a few random thoughts, more to follow.

The biggest suprise was Denver CC which Doug Wright hosted me at. It is really quite good with some very interesting Maxwell greens and a couple of Bill Coore par 3's incorporated over the past 10 years. For the number of archies that have had a hand in there over the past 100 years, it is amazingly cohesive, other than #16 which is a stock 60's dogleg around a lake that is totally out of place on the course. Also, the best club I have seen for families since Plainfield CC.

[DMoriarty]

For what it is worth and with all due respect for my good friend Tommy, I'd be interested in hearing about how these two courses compare and contrast.  They seem to be often mentioned together, so not having played Wildhorse, I'd like to hear about their similarities and differences.  

Plus, I have to turn down an invitation to play Wildhorse and a certain other Nebraska course said to have pretty bunkers, so I hopefully can live vicariously through the descriptions on this board.  

[Matt_Ward]

I don't know how many people have played both -- I have -- and they are both fun and thrilling courses to play. I'll return later for a hole-by-hole match and some general comments.

Just one for now -- WH puts a greater premium on driving the ball for both distance and accuracy than RC although the green contours at RC do narrow that edge considerably.

[Brad Swanson]

Ed,
 š Although we had this discussion while playing at Murphy Creek, I don't recall you expounding on what greens you thought didn't tie-in well at WH, and why they didn't. šCan you elaborate please, as I am meeting Dick there for a few rounds this weekend and would like to see if I see the same things. šMy whirlwind round there last fall during the one man scramble didn't let me take-in all of its architectural merits (or shortcomings?) :-/
 š BTW, not to pick nits, but the dogleg left around the water on the backside at DCC is #14. š;)


Cheers,
Brad

[ed_getka]

Thanks Brad for the correction.

I'm going to have trouble going through Wild Horse hole by hole because I cannot remember them that well. I was having too much fun meeting Paul Turner and catching up with Shivas. We did discuss a couple of holes at length, such as the Redanish concept long par 3 that didn't have enough slope to the right in play to give you a kicker slope, also the green doesn't fall away.

At Wild Horse the greens are pretty firm and there were holes where it was difficult to run a ball up to the hole since the slopes that tied into the green weren't contoured helpfully.

This is all based on only one round with minimal wind so it is certainly not my definitive opinion, as I will play there again this year and will be more careful about noting details.

Overall an excellent course, especially for $34, but I would choose Rustic Canyon over WH. Matt is right WH is more demanding off the tee, but RC has superior greens and surrounds IMHO. I like the bunkering better at WH, but both have outstanding bunkering in my book.

[RJ_Daley]

First off, I never played RC.  I walked most of it twice, once 3/4 way through construction, and once a week or so before opening.  I'm not sure I'd say the contours at RC are greater in slope/severity, but I would say that combined with average green size that is much larger at RC, they may seem more contoured.  Also, there is similarity in both having wider surrounds of fairway cut rather than rough surrounds.  They both offer the chance to play along the ground from off the greens, or chip.  When Ed mentions tie-ins, to me this implies purposeful construction-design of shaping a green, bunkers  and surrounds with distant references like land forms, mountains etc.  The thing is, there was very little greens and surrounds construction at Wild Horse.  They are mostly sited naturally.  So if they tie into horizon features and so forth, it is happenstance.  One comment Ron Whitten made in his evaluation of WH is that he though the boys over did shaping on some of the nobs and noses preceding entry to some of the greens.  I may be wrong, but I think those are the generally natural features that existed on the land without shaping.  They just routed it and turned the prairie turf over and planted bluegrass.  I believe to a large extent Rustic also used natural contours that existed and thus obtained a rippled fairway and greens approach effect.  Also, the turf varieties are different at RC and WH, and I do think that might matter for those with a far better game than mine.

As for Bayside, the front 9 is more angular shots over doglegs, some blindness and some extreme contour in greens.  The backside may have 240 yard carries from some back tees.  I don't know, I don't go back that far  From whites, I don't think there is a carry over 200-210, but the vast backdrops of long views and such make them seem longer than they are.  As a complete package with routing, pace, consistent design principles, Wild Horse beats Bayside quite well.  But, there are some extremely exciting holes at Bayside.

I gotta drive 13+ hours tomorrow to get there for SAt-Sun.  I see they had alot of rain.  Even with 50-100ft of sand below the deck, I wouldn't be surprised if it is a wee bit softer than we have found it.

There is no way I couldn't have an enjoyable day on either course and if RC was only 900 miles, I'd probably go there too...

[David Kelly]

Mr. Daley,
You are a sick individual.  But in a good way.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Both courses have a lot of GREAT attributes, as well as some minor flaws.  Compared head to head, I'd agree with those who say that Wild Horse is generally more interesting from the tee, while Rustic Canyon has superior greensites and surrounds.

Overall, from an architectural perspective, I'd put RC a half point ahead of WH based on a greater sophistication of design.  However, from a playing perspective, I'd put WH a half point ahead of RC based on a single factor.  Wild Horse is simply the firmest, fastest, most yardage-variable course I've seen in the states and if you throw in the vagaries of the high winds sweeping those plains, it's the closest thing to a true links that one can play in the US.  

Call it a draw and I won't argue.

[THuckaby2]

Now this is the $128K question (adjusted for inflation) for which several have been waiting, given recent conversations...

And having played both, my only take is....

I agree 100% with Mike Cirba and having absolutely nothing else to add.  Well said, Mike.

TH

[RJ_Daley]

OK David Kelly, here is how sick I am.

I drove 15 hours to get there Friday night.  We played 36 with Brad Saturday (walking them all of course)  Had a decent Nebraska beef dinner, and needed sleep.  Played the morning and raised a very painful blister-nueroma on my foot.  Again, we were the only people walking that wonderful course, and for Father's day, they allowed family 5somes.  It seemed painfully slow on the front side, yet we played  our round in 4 hours.  We were going to play Bayside in a cart that afternoon and tried to call ahead to get on Bayside, and no one answers their phone  So we decided to forgoe Bayside this time.  I figured I'd head out driving at about 3Pm Sunday and stop in Omaha for the night.  But, even after playing in the heat, I felt fresh.  So, here is where I must be nuts - I made it to Des Moines in record time and still had plenty of daylight.  Kept going, and didn't get drowzy until Wisconsin border.  I slept two hours in a rest stpp and got home at 6Am this morn.  Total, 30 hours on the road in a 72 hours span.  54 glorious holes of golf at my favorite place.

Yes David, you have a point there

And, by the way, Brad played some wonderful golf despite a few missed puts.  His eagle on par 4, 435 2nd, having about 110 left with wedge was a thing of beauty as he played off the right greenside contour that "ties in" and trundled it down to the hole mid way back on the left side.  My best memory will be the one time I was even distance with him 10 feet on the front fringe of the par 5 , 530 14th.  It was the perfect Wild Horse pin about 15 ft behind the front of green nose deflection mound in the fescue apron.  Brad was on the left side of the deflection mound that "ties" into the green front, and I was on the right.  Interesting how we both hit perfectly struck drive and second shots to reach this point.  I from the white tees about 35 yards forward of Brad being at the tips.  I with my best 3 wood of the weekend to that apron spot, and Brad with his lazy 7 iron!  I had been putting almost everything from 20 and more ft off the fast fescue surrounds, but Brad asked me if I was going to chip it.  Which is his usual choice in those situations.  Well I bit on the power of suggestion, and chipped it about 1 foot right of the ideal and the nose sent me about 15 ft right on the slick firm greens, and Brad missed less than a foot from the ideal and was sent left.  My best chance at an eagle and sort of routine situation for Brad, and both of us missed!  I three putted as usual for a laughable par.  Brad at least made his ho-hum birdie...

They had recieved alot of rain in Nebraska, yet the greens hardly yielded a ball mark ever.  They have filled in great with the spring heat and rain, and rolled fast and true.  The bluegrass fairways were about as green and a bit sticky as I have seen them, yet would be considered firm and fast by our great lakes area standards.  Every fairway lie was perfectly set up on the turf.  The fescue surrounds were near flawless.  I'm thinking of commuting there with only a 30 hour round trip drive, every weekend. :-/

[THuckaby2]

Dick, you remain one of our nation's great golf nuts, and there is no higher compliment I can give.  

The point here though is that Dick isn't insane, this course is WORTH a little temporary leave of logistical sense.  Playing golf there is more fun than married men are typically allowed to have.  

TH

[Brad Swanson]

  As Dick's partner in crime this weekend, I'll chime in with my 2 cents too.  You just gotta love pulling in to the golf course parking lot at 9:00am on a perfect Saturday morning to be greeted by only about a dozen cars.  The greens at WH were perfect, barely dentable, and quick.  The surrounds were firming up from the recent deluge of rain, leaving several options from within 50 yds or even further-out.  The wind picked-up in the afternoon on Saturday, making the course play quite differently in the afternoon.  
   Surprisingly, my highlight of the 54 hole marathon wasn't my deuce on 2, instead, it was birdieing the 8th.  From the tips (440) it was playing straight into a 2+ club wind at the time.  I nutted one, still leaving myself about 195 to the green.  The next shot was a punched 2 iron from about 195 and a severe uphill lie that never got more than flagstick high the entire way and ran to the back pin about pin high 15 feet right of pin  (A sight that would've made Adam Clayman cry).  Made my only putt longer than 6 feet all weekend for the bird.  The 3 best shots of the weekend, all on the same hole.
   Playing 2 consecutive days with different pin placements really made me appreciate how your strategy changes depending on certain pins (notably 3, 5, 8, 9, 11 , 12, , 13, 18 ).  Also, despite the wide fairways, the movement off of the tees requires some improvisation to place yourself in the garden spot.  If Rustic compares equally or better than WH, I can hardly wait to see it (Ed, book us a time for late January, and I'll book my conference now  )
   On our drive to Brady for a steak dinner Saturday evening, Dick and I passed by miles and miles of property that oozed potential, (although slightly more severe).  If you play WH, the experience is not complete unless Dick is there to provide the historical perspective of the the success stories and failures of golf development on the high plains.
   This morning I told my boss and some labmates that "Nebraska is a special place for golf", and got nothing but blank stares in return.  When I told them I hit the road at 3:45am  Saturday morning to make our 1st tee time, it pretty much solidified their opinions that I am crazy.  
  

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[ed_getka]

Brad,
 Sounds like you guys had a great time. I look forward to going back in Sept and taking another look at WH. What are your favorite holes there?

[Brad Swanson]

Ed,
   We had a great time, hopefully some of the other local GCAers can join us next time.  My general thought is that the back 9 is the tougher (and better) 9 holes by far.  It has only one short par 4 (#15) and that crowned postage stamp of a green is a tough target with a flipped wedge or less.  
   11 is a great short par 3 with about half a dozen good "flag locations" (as the USGA likes to call them).  
   12 from the tippy tips is a great hole, especially when they put that pin in back.  I didn't hit a single good tee shot on that hole because I never settled on a plan of attack (too many options   )
   13 is a brute of a par 3 into the wind.  On our last round it was playing about 225 into a solid 15-20mph wind (210+15 yds as the pin was all the way back).  I had to jump on a 2 iron to get pin-high.  
   14 is a bit of a breather for a par 5, with one of the best surprise bunkers in the back of the green for the over-aggressive.  Good green complex (Dick and I had a run-in with the front knob and a front pin right behind it).
   15: Probably my favorite short par 4 I've ever played.  It might be a better hole from the middle tees than the tips, as the shorter golfer has a few more options form there.  Not much sense in trying to drive the green, but driving nearly pin-high left was a big priority as to not have to hit a less than full shot into a tiny green sandwiched between 2 nasty bunkers (I sampled the front bunker after hitting a shot that actually landed about 8-10 feet on the green, and it wasn't pretty).
  16  A brute into the wind with one of several drives at WH to a wide fairway, but the preferred angle which sortens the hole needs to go to the right of the central bunker and left of the straw.  Great undulating greensite.
  17  Invisible central bunker off of the tee for the long hitter planted the seeds of doubt every time, even though I knew it was there.  Nice elevated greensite with runaway slopes off of the left.
  18  Similar tee shot to 16.  Scary trap on the right.  Beautiful greensite, but this hole (for me) forced a draw for the approach.  Big kickboard on the right of the green helps access to virtually the entire green.  Hit a fade or even a high straight shot into the kicker and it won't help.

The frontside has some holes I really like (like 3, 5, 8   , and 9, but the back is more consistently solid).  I could go on and on.  Someday hopefully we can discuss its merits in person while playing a match there.  

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Bill_McBride]

So this leads to a couple of questions:

From outside the Midwest, where does one fly into to play Wild Horse and Sand Hills?

It all sounds great!

Dick Daley, you do sound like a bit of a loon.  Looking forward to meeting you in New Mexico!

[RJ_Daley]

Bill, I wish I was able to meet up with you in Tuscany as we had previously spoken.  There are other things besides golf, even for a loon like me

I have flown into Lincoln and rented a car from there.  It is about a 2.45 hour drive west.  North Platte and Kearney also have airports with commuter airlink services.  But, from what I have seen, Lincoln is much cheaper.  Omaha is obviously the biggest airport and is another 45 minutes.

[Mike Hendren]

I'm going to have trouble going through Wild Horse hole by hole because I cannot remember them that well.

Ed,

I'm having the same problem.  Perhaps I was brainwashed in the days immediately following my round there.  

I am crazy about Wild Horse, however. The staff accommodated my request to be first off at 7:15 a.m.  I walked and carried solo and finished at 10:30 a.m. all the while playing a few extra shots around the greens and snapping some photographs.  

The wind was extremely brisk and rarely buffered.  It had a definite prairie feel significantly different from its famous neighbor, despite the similarity of several architectural elements.  For me, it was a Field of Dreams experience.  

I need to spend some time with my yardage book to better comment and get past my current impression that there was a certain sameness to several holes.

Regards,

Mike

[RJ_Daley]

I have to say Dave that it is an interesting study in golfer differences as to what blows ones skirt up, so to speak.  5 is a bit of a stand out for some because it is a short par 4 but semi blind green guarded by a convex or inverted bunker.  6 is a dowble dogleg par 5 that is bunkerless tee to green, which is terraced and contoured.  7 is a short and drivable par 4 for really big hitters because of the wide open LZ coming from the right, something like 12 at Rustic Canyon.  But, a mid LZ slightly left side bunker and a left front green side bunker, with fall away green.  13 is a redanish difficult par 3 into the wind, but very big green, and 14 is down wind reachable par 5 with the surprise on the very end of the hole so to speak.  15 is described by many as a favorite because it is a drivable par 4 with open green run-up far left but front and back nasty bunkers and smallish green.

For me, less memorable holes after a first time round might be 1 and 2 with 12, 14, 17 having similar approach shots looks.  But their tee shots are vastly different.

PS a question:  Of you fellows that played the course recently (Dave, Ed, Mike) I was not aware of new tees on 12 on the far left with a relatively straight downhill to the fairway across the top shot aiming bunker on 12.  When we played both days, they had the black and gold tees there.  We rufused to play them.  I was appalled.  I hope you did like we did and played the original tees as it is a far more exciting tee ball from 397 or 434 tees attacking fairway from the right, with a bunker over the hill up right side.  It is one of my top 2-3 driving holes from there.  Dan once mentioned that they might even add tigertees further back on the fenceline from the right at 450 or so, which would be great.  But, I need to ask Dan Proctor if he had anything to do with the current new tees, and if so, what the heck were they thinking  They are also making new back tees to par 3 9th, that will make the shot very good for the better players at about 175-180.  

[RJ_Daley]

I have just discovered something that must be akin to the Pacific Dunes thing where there are somewhat hidden tees that few people know about.  I just looked at a score card, and realised that those tees I hate on 12 have actually been there previously.  I have played the course about 30 times, and I never knew they were there, obviously never played them, and still hate them.

[A_Clay_Man]

I avoided this thread till now cause I need to see RC, but I must say it is a most enjoyable read. From Tommy quantifying his passion and giving Senor Goo dale's 3 star system a nod for simplicities sake to laughing my arse off at Dick's sickness and adventures. Then to mention by the Man, Brad Swanson, I am proud. Proud to be a gca dweeb along with the rest of you. Surely, Brad said it best that if RC is that close to WH, it's gonna have to be sooner rather than later.

Cheers boys!

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