News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2017, 01:44:36 PM »
No pics & cannot recall the exact length but I remember hitting my 120m club both visits....17 at St Germaine?


Greg, good call. St. Germaine has some excellent 3's. You may be surprised but the 7th and 11th are both shorter (though only by yds than the 17th)


Which one would you call the best on the course? I personally like the 7th the most. It's 131 yds.


I was going to bring up St. Germain until I checked the card and saw they were all a bit long for the stated criteria.  The 7th from the winter tees played about 120 I feel though, and that was the one I was going to mention.  As far as favorites, it is really hard to pick one as they are all so good.  5 and 17 probably get a slight nod from me, with 7 close behind. 


One thing I noted on 7 is how the short left bunker interacts with the approach bunker on 3.  It was very clever and the kind of thing found throughout the course.  There are very few courses I have been where the bunkers have such an impact on the landscape/spatial feel of a place.  Very impressive stuff and excellent study in how to jam a ton of visual interest into an otherwise simple site.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2017, 03:15:18 PM »
Whittington Heath - 13th - hope it survives HS2
http://www.whittingtonheathgc.co.uk/course/course-tour/hole/13/
Atb



Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2017, 05:21:02 PM »
Rickmansworth Muni has some good ones...from memory the 5th was the standout at about 115 yds. 


You have to smack it up onto a plateau high above the tee and there's a lot going on in the green.
I was about to say that the 5th at Rickmansworth was a par 4, then checked the card online.  They've obviously done some work there since I was a member in the early '90s.  The 3rd used to be a steeply downhill 70 yard par 3, and the 2nd a long(ish) par 4 at 420.  The 2nd has obviously been extended to a par 5 and the 3rd is a par 4.  I imagine the 3rd plays to what used to be the green of the (then driveable) 4th?  It used to be a par 63, with 9 3s and 9 4s.  Now it's a 65, with a 5, 9 4s and 8 3s. I must get back and have a look.
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2017, 06:35:27 PM »
Mark


Yes the current 5th was the 6th when I played it.  I think it may be simply that the ultra short 3rd is now only played as an alternate hole (it's still there) but to which hole I'm not sure.  Maybe the par 3 near the turn?


Do you remember the 5th/6th? I'll try and find my old pic.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2017, 05:23:22 AM »
Thanks for your answers. Some of these I have seen several others I have not. I posted this with kind of a feeling that perhaps Colt really didn't make any "great" short par 3's. A discussion I was having last weekend with some custodians of a Colt course turned up their belief that Colt always put in a short 3. I couldn't place that, in my mind running through several of the Colt courses I could think of. Indeed St. Germain was the closest and may well possess 3 of his best short 3's even though just a touch longer than my requirements.


At many of his courses it seems he kept the 3's, or maybe he was better at designing mid to long 3's. Now this is just theory and I doubt I have enough evidence to prove this but it certainly seems so. If you look at courses like Sunnindale, Rye, Pine Valley etc...non have a great short 3, or even have one at all.



Next up: open to ideas!

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.top100golfcourses.com

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2017, 06:14:06 AM »
David, as we discussed offline the other day, I basically agree with you. But you should note that Rye, in its current form, is in no sense a Colt course.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2017, 07:47:58 AM »
Thanks for your answers. Some of these I have seen several others I have not. I posted this with kind of a feeling that perhaps Colt really didn't make any "great" short par 3's. A discussion I was having last weekend with some custodians of a Colt course turned up their belief that Colt always put in a short 3. I couldn't place that, in my mind running through several of the Colt courses I could think of. Indeed St. Germain was the closest and may well possess 3 of his best short 3's even though just a touch longer than my requirements.
At many of his courses it seems he kept the 3's, or maybe he was better at designing mid to long 3's. Now this is just theory and I doubt I have enough evidence to prove this but it certainly seems so. If you look at courses like Sunnindale, Rye, Pine Valley etc...non have a great short 3, or even have one at all.


There is surely also the question of what length would the various holes have been when HSC built them?
Atb




David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2017, 08:17:56 AM »
David, as we discussed offline the other day, I basically agree with you. But you should note that Rye, in its current form, is in no sense a Colt course.


Adam,


Bursting another bubble are we? That's a bit disappointing but do you think that reflects on the lack of short par 3's or are you only trying rectify my calling it a Colt? I guess the latter.
Next up: open to ideas!

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.top100golfcourses.com

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2017, 08:21:06 AM »
Thanks for your answers. Some of these I have seen several others I have not. I posted this with kind of a feeling that perhaps Colt really didn't make any "great" short par 3's. A discussion I was having last weekend with some custodians of a Colt course turned up their belief that Colt always put in a short 3. I couldn't place that, in my mind running through several of the Colt courses I could think of. Indeed St. Germain was the closest and may well possess 3 of his best short 3's even though just a touch longer than my requirements.
At many of his courses it seems he kept the 3's, or maybe he was better at designing mid to long 3's. Now this is just theory and I doubt I have enough evidence to prove this but it certainly seems so. If you look at courses like Sunnindale, Rye, Pine Valley etc...non have a great short 3, or even have one at all.


There is surely also the question of what length would the various holes have been when HSC built them?
Atb




Thomas, some of them were most likely lengthened a little but I'm guess Adam would be better suited to respond to that one.


If we took St. Germain for example, I have the feeling those were not lengthened and it's unlikely if a club were modernizing a Classic Colt course that they would substantially lengthen a really short hole to make it a medium length one for example. Though I do know one example of this that didn't work well. Mind you only the back tee was lengthened.



Next up: open to ideas!

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.top100golfcourses.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2017, 08:22:52 AM »
Dai


That was basically the question I asked previously. The easiest thing in the world is to move the tee to add a bit of length. I imagine that there won't be many Colt courses that haven't been lengthened and you would have to imagine that short par 3's would be the obvious candidates to be lengthened. Judging them by there length now is one thing but we should be wary in saying he didn't do short par 3's judging them on todays distances.


Niall

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2017, 09:01:49 AM »
Dai


That was basically the question I asked previously. The easiest thing in the world is to move the tee to add a bit of length. I imagine that there won't be many Colt courses that haven't been lengthened and you would have to imagine that short par 3's would be the obvious candidates to be lengthened. Judging them by there length now is one thing but we should be wary in saying he didn't do short par 3's judging them on todays distances.


Niall




Very possible Niall, however, even the shorter ones seem pretty rare at this stage and them I'm talking about the lengths like St. Germaine. I'm not only look for short but his best short ones. Either way without any evidence or proof that all these holes were short and have been significantly lengthened it's not likely that's what happened. But "maybe" you guys are right. I'd imagine a few were of course lengthened but again, talking about the really short ones.
Next up: open to ideas!

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.top100golfcourses.com

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2017, 09:53:10 AM »
David, as we discussed offline the other day, I basically agree with you. But you should note that Rye, in its current form, is in no sense a Colt course.


Adam,


Bursting another bubble are we? That's a bit disappointing but do you think that reflects on the lack of short par 3's or are you only trying rectify my calling it a Colt? I guess the latter.


Yes, correct. Colt's course has been totally changed over the years, I don't believe that any of his holes survive.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2017, 11:57:45 AM »
Dai


That was basically the question I asked previously. The easiest thing in the world is to move the tee to add a bit of length. I imagine that there won't be many Colt courses that haven't been lengthened and you would have to imagine that short par 3's would be the obvious candidates to be lengthened. Judging them by there length now is one thing but we should be wary in saying he didn't do short par 3's judging them on todays distances.


Niall


Yes most will have had back tees added unless constrained by the preceding green or boundary etc.  Pine Valley 10th was 140 yards but now >160.  I doubt Colt is any different in the proportion of short par 3s when compared with his contemporaries.


Belvoir Park 8th is pretty short at about 135yds, as is 17th at Royal Wimbledon.


Hendon's 9th is about 110 yards and a good one but needs a bit of love.


Adam


I tried to figure out Rye. The 5th is often credited to Colt but i read in history that a member moved the green, but it was while Colt was affiliated with the club still, so I wonder.  From memory I think 12th is as original and 15th.  The 16th is close to original but the tee angle was different.  The second half of 18th too is original I think too (no Soup Bowl).
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2017, 12:06:10 PM »
Mark


Yes the current 5th was the 6th when I played it.  I think it may be simply that the ultra short 3rd is now only played as an alternate hole (it's still there) but to which hole I'm not sure.  Maybe the par 3 near the turn?


Do you remember the 5th/6th? I'll try and find my old pic.
Paul,


Yes, if I recall correctly it was an uphill par 3 with a steep rough bank in front and the satellite photo on Google Maps suggests that it's still as was.  Looking at the satellite photo I think they've moved the tee back on 2.  Perhaps the 3rd now plays from the original 3rd tee to the old 4th fairway.  I'm passing in a couple of weeks with my clubs and may pop in for a knock.  It must be more than 20 years since I last played Tricky Ricky.  I played Chorleywood for the first time in 18 years last summer and enjoyed the trip down memory lane, so Rickmansworth would be a treat.
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Andy Levett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2017, 12:30:56 PM »
16 at Tyneside is only 120 yards
http://www.tynesidegolfclub.co.uk/course-information/hole-by-hole-tour/#hole16


Also in NE England the 2nd at Brancepeth Castle is 135 yards from what I believe is the original tee.
http://www.brancepeth-castle-golf.co.uk/page.aspx?pid=30968#tabs-2
No bunkers, which must be quite unusual for a quality short par 3.


Cheers

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2017, 05:42:28 PM »
A couple of others to throw into the mix - nice holes -
7th at Edgbaston
5th at Copt Heath
Atb

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2017, 03:33:05 AM »
A couple of others to throw into the mix - nice holes -
7th at Edgbaston
5th at Copt Heath
Atb


143 and 145 yards. There really aren't a lot of sub-120s are there?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2017, 04:04:21 AM »
A couple of others to throw into the mix - nice holes -
7th at Edgbaston
5th at Copt Heath
Atb
143 and 145 yards. There really aren't a lot of sub-120s are there?


Seemingly not but as per above,
tees move back over time, what would have the distances have been when they were built by HSC?
150 yds with a decent trajectory would have been a pretty decent shot for Average Joe amateur back in the golden age when using an original hickory shafted, slippery gripped, thin bladed iron and a ball that wasn't really round while wearing a jacket and tie.....whereas a lessor yardage would have been more easily achieved with success.


atb

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2017, 06:08:08 AM »
Harborne's 3rd at 125 yds is close to original length.  Not at standout hole there, but would love to have see restored as that course had some of the company's best bunkering.


Eindhoven's 8th is a good example of a strong v short par 3 lengthened.  The original back tees are at 110 yds but a new set of tees were added recently, at a different angle, which increased the length to 160!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 06:23:13 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2017, 09:02:18 AM »
It doesn't quite fit the criteria, because it's a bit over 125 (it's 146), but in my mind it's a short par 3 and it's a Colt and it's probably one of the best holes on the course:





The green is a kidney bean shape and drops off on both sides. It slopes right to left and the bank above the bunker on the right obscures your view on the tee shot. The tee is a little further to the right than the picture here has been taken from. It's about 14 yards wide the whole depth of the green, but the centre of that 14 yards moves as the depth changes. Great little hole.


Course is Effingham Golf Club in Surrey. This is the 13th.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt's Best Short Par 3's
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2017, 01:56:47 PM »
I was just looking again at the 13th hole at Whittington Heath, a par-3 I highlighted above.
Noticeable how you now walk back from the 12th green to the 13th tee and of course the green slopes down from front to rear with a fronting bunker and big drop over the rear of the green.
It wouldn't have been easy to hit a shot high enough from the current yardage for a shot to carry the fronting bunker and land and stop on the green with original hickory's, an olde spec ball etc so it's difficult to believe the yardage hasn't increased over the decades.
atb

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back