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BCowan

Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« on: November 28, 2016, 04:33:28 PM »
Meadowbrook CC in (Northville, MI) went through a massive Renovation this past year with Andy Staples leading the way!  Here is a look at the WPJ inspired Huntercombe 4th, that now is the 3rd hole at Meadowbrook!  There was some other advantages with creating this hole.  The 3rd hole adjustments were made in conjunction with other hole modifications, both in terms of agronomy, flow of routing, and safety.  The 3rd green was moved away from the property line, which allowed for less shade, a safer golf hole and additional length on #4.   The green is now set on the edge of the hillside, capitalizing on a long view from the 3rd fairway and green out towards the 4th and 5th holes in the distance.  The old 7th tee was in direct line with a commonly sliced shot from old 3rd tee, or hooked shots into homes on the left due to the close proximity to the property line down the entire length of the hole.  Now the 6th and 7th have shifted to make way for the new 3rd green, new 5th green and a new par 3, 6th.  These adjustments allowed us to take advantage of unused property, which happens to be the highest point on the front nine.  Now, hole 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 have a better flow, have enabled length to be added in desired areas, and maximized the awesome topography.  A photo tour of before and after will follow at a later time. 
                                                                                                                                                                  (Photos by Brian Walters)


Approach


Pitch range


From 4th tee


Huntercombe's 4th hole





The Old 3rd at Meadowbrook


« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 07:04:39 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Meadowbrook's 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2016, 04:46:31 PM »
Ben: 


These are beautiful!  And show off the extent of Andy's thoughtful process and the results of knowledge combined with hard work.  Having watched some of the progress at meadow brook and having played it a dozen or so times over fifty years this redo will be talked about for a long time and launch meadow brook up the Michigan charts.  Thanks for this (first) post.


Anthony

Joe Hancock

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2016, 07:04:29 PM »
It was a very rainy day when I was there to get the tour from Scott Clem, the shaper who pulled off most of this bold work. I liked what I saw and am looking forward to playing the course.

Thanks for posting, and congrats to Meadowbrook and all involved.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 07:43:08 AM »
Very interesting and incredibly bold in an old fashioned way for a modern redesign.  Did the archie actually say he used Huntercombe for a template?

Now if we can just get Huntercombe to make the front right into green and all would be well with the world  8)

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 07:59:19 AM »
Very interesting and incredibly bold in an old fashioned way for a modern redesign.  Did the archie actually say he used Huntercombe for a template?

Now if we can just get Huntercombe to make the front right into green and all would be well with the world  8)

Ciao


Andy brought a group of the club's key decision makers over to England for a tour of the heathlands before the project started, to show them what Park's courses looked like and to pick up ideas. I know they all loved Huntercombe, though this is the first I'd heard about a Huntercombe template!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

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BCowan

Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 08:11:09 AM »
Very interesting and incredibly bold in an old fashioned way for a modern redesign.  Did the archie actually say he used Huntercombe for a template?

Now if we can just get Huntercombe to make the front right into green and all would be well with the world  8)

Ciao

S,

   The front right 1/4 of Meadowbrook's 3rd green complex area is fairway/fringe HOC.  The green is an upside down Capital L. 

Ryan Taylor

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 10:30:17 AM »
Thanks for posting. This will be fascinating to follow. Who would of predicted this for Meadowbrook CC 5-10 years ago. I predict this will be the most discussed course re-design on this site in 2017!
“Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up.”

Gary_Nelson

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 07:55:03 PM »
The complications around the green will likely be polarizing for many who have played this course a lot and want to compare new -vs. old #3 (which there really isn't a comparison).


The front right grass bunker on the new #3 appears to be a very difficult place for an up and down par save. 


The rear right portion of the green is about 4 feet lower than the rest of the green, and will make it difficult for a 2-putt if the pin is front left.


It will be interesting to see statistical comparison of scores from last year to this year, on this relatively short par 4.

BCowan

Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 02:20:19 PM »
The complications around the green will likely be polarizing for many who have played this course a lot and want to compare new -vs. old #3 (which there really isn't a comparison).


The front right grass bunker on the new #3 appears to be a very difficult place for an up and down par save. 


The rear right portion of the green is about 4 feet lower than the rest of the green, and will make it difficult for a 2-putt if the pin is front left.


It will be interesting to see statistical comparison of scores from last year to this year, on this relatively short par 4.


Gary,


    I'm more curious to see if the hole will bring out more creative 2nd shot making attempts by the average member.  I'm so excited to play the hole and kudos to Andy for implementing this fine hole.  Edgy.....

Gary_Nelson

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 08:24:07 PM »
Ben,
The original 3rd hole didn't require creative approach shots.   The new design certainly will.  Whether the members like the new design is another story.  I think it is a huge step up from a difficulty standpoint, and it might make regular players better in their short games...or force them to practice more.  I just hope there isn't an outcry to "fix" the hole and put it back toward the old design.

Aaron McMaster

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 08:51:41 PM »
There isn't really any going back to the old hole here, the effort to go back would be extremely difficult and cost prohibitive.  Not to mention this is the new Meadowbrook, it's not just the 3rd hole, the whole course will have this type of feel.


I think this renovation will hinge a lot on green speeds...If Meadowbrook members demand 11-12 foot green speeds, it could be a difficult course to play. 

Credit Staples and the people involved for pushing the envelop, probably well out of most peoples comfort zone.  It will be very interesting to see how it plays.  Exciting stuff!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 08:59:21 PM by Aaron McMaster »

Gary_Nelson

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2016, 06:26:23 PM »
Do architects typically provide guidelines about green speed limits in the design process? 


I remember Andy Staples' presentation last month where he showed a colored chart with "pinnable" locations of the 7th green.  Do you know if these charts are tied to green speeds?

Ian Andrew

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2016, 07:18:45 PM »

Wow, that is superbly out of the box.
I'm excited to go and see Andy's work.


There are aspects that I'm not quite sure of ... but that's great ... and that will be half the fun of seeing it in person ... and playing it too.
Can't wait, its now on my list for next fall.


I've been looking for something atypical of what the most popular architects are doing.
Kudos to Andy to challenge our comfort zone.
-

Tom_Doak

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2016, 07:58:45 PM »
Do architects typically provide guidelines about green speed limits in the design process? 


I remember Andy Staples' presentation last month where he showed a colored chart with "pinnable" locations of the 7th green.  Do you know if these charts are tied to green speeds?


Any chart of "pinnacle" locations would have to assume a certain green speed.  It would be a very different chart at 10 than at 12, for greens like this.


Providing guidelines about green speed can be done, but it's fruitless.  I've had clients promise me the greens would not be above 10 [back in the good old days], or 11.5, and then come back to see them two feet faster.  Clubs will do what they want to do, even if they are making the greens silly in the process.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2016, 08:06:54 PM »
Very impressive.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sean_A

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 04:47:06 AM »
Very interesting and incredibly bold in an old fashioned way for a modern redesign.  Did the archie actually say he used Huntercombe for a template?

Now if we can just get Huntercombe to make the front right into green and all would be well with the world  8)

Ciao

S,

   The front right 1/4 of Meadowbrook's 3rd green complex area is fairway/fringe HOC.  The green is an upside down Capital L.


Thanks...so very similar to Huntercombe.  Is there any thought to making the front right area green?  I never could figure out why Huntercombe's area is not green...would make for a great Sunday hole location.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, Minehead, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Kyle Harris

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 06:04:02 AM »
Very interesting.

The 6th green at Penn State's White Course is rather similar, if just a tad smaller.

The tier is also back right.
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Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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BCowan

Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2017, 01:05:18 PM »
Had the privilege to play Meadowbrook yesterday.  The course just opened 3 weeks ago and the grow in has been impressive to say the least.  One of my favorites on the course, the 3rd is coming in nicely.  Jared Milner the Superintendent has done a great job.  Kudos to Staples and the board for having the courage to build such a bold hole.  Believe it or not, I think many other greens are easier to 3 putt then this one. 



Anthony Gholz

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2017, 01:19:09 PM »


adding to Ben's thread from yesterday's play
this is the first hole
first tee with view across practice green to 10th tee and fairway.  Fairway on right is the 18th coming in.





Ryan Taylor

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Re: Meadowbrook's (new) 3rd, Willie Park Jr Inspired Template
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2017, 08:03:42 PM »
Thanks for the photos! Course looks great and I can't wait to play. Is that a wooden flag pole? Can't believe they went minimalist with accessories. I would have never guessed this a few years ago.
“Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up.”

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