[Sven Nilsen]

If there is any criticism of Ross on this board, it is that he is often described as having "mailed it in."  Whether he paid only a single site visit, or designed the course only off of a topo, his reputation and the scale of his enterprise allowed him to cover multiple projects with a seeming passing effort on his part.

Yet there's an example of a Ross course, one built later in his career when he was less prone to travel, where his involvement cannot be questioned.

In 1937 Ross visited Elmira, NY to help select a site for the city's new municipal golf course.

March 16, 1937 Elmira Star-Gazette -



Not only was this a municipal course, it was a course being built on a fairly meager budget with a fee for the architect that was significantly less than he had commanded in the past.

By all accounts, this was not a draw it up and leave it to others to build project.  Even two years later, Ross was on site to inspect the course and examine the grow in.

- Aug. 2, 1939 Elmira Star-Gazette -



So what was it about this particular project that piqued his interest?  Was it simply the timing of a late-depression era course without much else going on?  Or have we somehow over the years given Ross less credit than he deserves for his attention to his projects?

[MCirba]

Sitting just outside Elmira NY and 10 mins away from the course at this very moment, i have to vouch for Mark Twain GC.


In a perfect world, every little town and hamlet would have such a place.

[Sean_A]

Ross gets grief for mail jobs, but didn't he offer different levels of service?  It seems harsh to get on the case of a guy for mailing it in when that is what the job called for.


Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

A woman?

[David Bowen]

Played there a number of times in the 90's when a wonderful man named John Corsi (I think) was the head pro.  He has since passed.  He had been there for many years.  He told me he had seen a map at one time which he could no longer locate that showed each green where every tee was and vice versa.  In other words, the routing was reversed.  When we spoke, we believed it was a mail in job.


Funny thing is that the course likely would play well in reverse, though certainly some nice green sites were captured with its constructed routing. 


We wondered if JB McGovern or Walter Hatch had been the on-site construction supervisor who had license to do what suited the site better from what had been drafted by DR from a topo.  It is interesting to read that he was actually on site.  Surprising as well given his age and date of death.  Surprised he would have left Pinehurst for Elmira at that stage of his life.  Thats not a dig at Elmira, which is a beautiful spot, but it was not a project that was going to bring any added recognition to Ross or notoriety for hosting a big tournament.  Perhaps he was feeling philanthropic in his last days?  He certainly spent a fair amount of time in upstate NY in earlier years, but didn't refine any of his other designs in the area in the later 30's or into the 40's.


It remains a strong layout, an absolute blast to play, many greens with typical Ross features, and one of the better bargains in US golf.  On the other hand, I believe, not positive, the green on 11, which is a par three that plays gradually uphill about 235 from the back tee, had the green softened.  It had a cruel slope from back to front and built on about a 3' pad off the fairway.  It seemed there were many locals who considered it unplayable from above the hole, not that many tee shots ended up past the stick, though many second shots did, meaning a bogey would have been well holed.  It was a museum piece sort of hole.  If it was indeed softened, it certainly fell victim to modern green speeds.  The course is well worth a play if in the area.             

[Peter Pallotta]

Sven - I don't know anything about Ross, so this is a learning exercise for me. And in that context, I'm not sure why you have chosen this example as one where Ross *didn't* mail it in.

From the articles you've posted (and I assume if you had more you'd have posted them as well): he came for a site inspection in March 1937, and then returned in August 1939 to check on how the course was growing in.

You write: " Even two years later, Ross was on site to inspect the course and examine the grow in."  But couldn't you have instead written "Then, two years later....?"  And wouldn't have that been more accurate?

What I mean is: the word "even" suggests an ongoing and extensive engagement by Ross with the project, when it seems - unless you have other/additional sources that indicate otherwise -- that he only came to the site-course *twice*, once (to pick the former) and then a second time (to promote the latter).

You write: "By all accounts, this was not a draw it up and leave it to others to build project."  What are some of those other accounts? I know Ross *did* "draw it up" -- but are you suggesting he *didn't* "leave it to others to build"?

Again, I have no axe to grind here: I have no idea if Ross "mailed in" some/most of his designs, and whether that's good/bad/indifferent. But on the face of it (i.e. what you've posted here), he sure doesn't seem to have done *much more* than mail in this one.

You write: "[H]is involvement cannot be questioned".  But if Ross' "involvement" at Mark Twain amounts to these two visits, I have to say that I wouldn't want to imagine what his *non-involvement* would look like.

Peter

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

Here's the Ross plan from 1937 (Sept. 3, 1937 Elmira Star-Gazette) -



And here's the modern aerial -



Not sure how anyone could say the course differs much if at all from how Ross planned it.  Sorry to say that John Corsi was very much mistaken.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven - I don't know anything about Ross, so this is a learning exercise for me. And in that context, I'm not sure why you have chosen this example as one where Ross *didn't* mail it in.

Peter

Peter

Go and read the third paragraph that David wrote above.  It'll give you some context. 

The short answer is that there are projects where Ross is criticized for simply designing off of a topo map without ever stepping foot on property and without ever showing up to examine how the work was going.

I'd also keep in mind the following article.  Note that this project came along when Ross was considered the senior statesman of the design world, and had been considered for decades the best architect in America.  The bid amounts here from the master and the apprentice are shocking.

Elmira Star-Gazette March 2, 1937 -

[MCirba]

Interestingly, and contrary to what Ross wrote was ideal, all four par threes are uphill with limited or no green visibility.

[Mike Nuzzo]

If this course is later in his career, how is the routing better?
Was the golf course more efficient to build - many parallel and adjacent holes on 150 acres?
Did he predict more accurately in plan and didn't need to adjust in the field - the current holes look identical to the plan.
The 1944 historic aerial bunker placement also looks identical to today's.
I'll guess less than ideal involvement.
Cheers

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:


Brad Klein estimated that for a third of his projects he never set foot on property.


So why for this municipal project where he was receiving a well below market rate for his services did he not follow that model?


Is it because his major design/build partnerships were no longer in place?  Was there some sort of particular attachment to this project? 


Sven

[Ronald Montesano]

Sven, great questions. Your research skills never fail to amaze and inspire me. When some earwig grabs hold, you don't let go until you've exhausted options. I look forward to the continuation of this thread.


I like MTwain vmuch and would play it often. It is a true municipal course, where jeans and tee shirts are as at home as polos and khaki shorts.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I went to College not that far away and played it while I was a senior back in 2008. I feel like I remember seeing a few different versions of plans/routings. So there was definitely somewhat of a process for this course.

[David Bowen]

Sven:  I was not posting to be disagreeable.  I was just recounting what I learned on site from someone who was there nearly every day for many years as additional information you might find useful if this was a course you were interested in researching fully.  As has been hashed many times, newspaper articles are not necessarily gospel or the whole story.  It was not unheard of for a Ross-drawn routing to be reversed in the field.  It is possible that he drew it one way and reversed it when he got there, which would make all the articles and Mr. Corsi correct. The supposition that it was a field super that did the reversal, if there was a reversal, was likely erroneous in light of the evidence of Ross' presence provided by the articles.


There is no question that there are plans dated 1937 of the as-built routing.  But that does not discount that an earlier routing could have been drawn before any on-site visit.  There was certainly available ground that would have allowed the course to play well in reverse.  There are 12 holes predominantly up or down, generally east and west, with 6 holes playing generally north or south across flatter terrain.  Given the same exact corridors, it certainly seems better as built.  Yet there is land around the north-south holes that could have provided the flexibility for solid holes to be built going the other way, with par threes playing down hill or from from high ground to high ground, rather than all uphill.


It was a WPA project and a municipal course from the start.  As it was not a group of wealthier men building their playground, records may be harder to come by.  The Tufts Archive only holds the 1937 plan.


Regardless, its all an insignificant issue since what was produced has provided the Southern Tier with a fine example of classic architecture at a bargain price for 77 years.  A good walk, too.

[Ally Mcintosh]

If an architect were allowed / paid to make only one visit to a site, when do you think would be the best time?


Slightly off-topic but am interested to see if answers differ

[Niall C]

Ally


Great question and one that deserves its own thread. FWIW I'd definitely say at the outset of the project when boundaries and likely clubhouse position(s) have been identified to enable a routing to be done, and if needs be altered at later date to adapt to changes in the field. IMO the routing is the most important and creative part of the process.


Niall

[Ronald Montesano]

Yes, David, you may have an "Amen"!


Nicely-worded response and viable points raised. There certainly might be something to this backstory, and here's hoping that those with interest, are able to uncover new material.

[Sven Nilsen]

David:


To be clear, the routing printed in the Star-Gazette on Sept. 3, 1937 was a plan, not an as-built map (construction wouldn't be completed until late 1938/early 1939).  It was drawn up after Ross had visited to help select the site in Mid-March 1937. 


It is entirely possible that plans exist of an alternative routing.  Wouldn't be the first time that a routing went through various iterations before a final version was settled on.  But there is no way that Ross reversed an initial plan based on seeing the property for the first time, as they didn't have a site until he saw it for the first time.


In any case, this reverse routing tangent has little to do with why Ross chose to take on this project in 1937, why he underbid Jones by such a significant amount, and why he was willing to spend the time and effort to travel to Elmira on multiple occasions while on other similar projects he handled the same process from the comfort of his workspace in Pinehurst or Rhode Island.


Sven 

[David Bowen]

Sven:  You are correct, it was a tangent, and I did not address your question.


Here's a theory:  The WPA, which was formed in 1935, was promoting golf course and clubhouse construction across the country.  Robert Trent Jones, who Ross had previously met, was likely viewed as an up and coming rival.  RTJ had recently constructed Green Lakes Park, another WPA project, outside of Syracuse to good reviews.  He was a Cornell grad, a bit of a local boy, and had worked under Stanley Thompson, who Ross likely respected, but was not, himself, making significant inroads into the American market.  Jones was likely seen as someone who could soon be taking away business opportunities from Ross in the States.  Coming out of the depression, private development money was tight and Ross' business had likely suffered, at least relative to his successes of the 1920's.  By underbidding RTJ and getting the Elmira job, he could have been attempting to gain favor with the WPA with the aim of winning future job, while at the same time perhaps keeping RTJ from gaining more notoriety.  Ross was competitive and a businessman.  These may have been his motivations.  After all, the Finger Lakes wine industry and road racing at nearby Watkins Glen had not yet been born.   

[Jim Sherma]

Played Mark Twain this morning for the first time in four or five years. This is a special course and I can only imagine how good it was upon opening or if a true renovation could occur.


The piece of land is very good with both 9’s attacking the upslope in the first few holes and then working back down with an easier walk as the 9’s go on. The greens are exceptional (1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18) are all memorable and have a lot happening in them. Wouldn’t take much speed to really bring out some fire in them.  My favorite holes are 5, 7, 13, 16, 18.


With all of the money spent on insipid and bland club courses in America it is a true shame that the few courses like this can’t be brought up to the standard the architecture and land merits.



As far as the current playing standards. Maintenance is good but it’s obvious the bunkers (those that have not been filled in already) have been the victims of ongoing financial triage, playable and raked, yet shrinking and in need of sand. Greens were healthy and smooth yet a touch on the slow side. Granted it was on a Monday and they easily could be sped up at will.


As far as the as planned versus as built routings in the locker room. Front nine had 7 as a par 4 and 8 as a par 3 as planned, built as a 3-4 instead. Also 4’s green and the tee location of 5 was slightly different. Back 9 had a par 3 between 12’s green and 13’s tee. No par three between 14 and 15. None of these looked that dramatic given what’s on the ground. Should have snapped a picture while there.

[Richard Hetzel]

I am planning on playing Mark Twain GC at the end of September, glad to hear it's worthwhile as I'll be combining it with Leatherstocking and another course as well. Should be a great weekend trip. I'll be sure and take some pics of the course.

[MCirba]

Richard,


Both well worth playing.  What's the 3rd course?


Thanks.

[Richard Hetzel]

Richard,


Both well worth playing.  What's the 3rd course?


Thanks.

The Links of Hiawatha possibly. Not sure if Binghampton CC allows outside play on a weekend. Also if I can squeeze it in, Green Lakes State Park GC (at least 9 holes) on my way back from Leatherstocking.

[MCirba]

Richard,


Very near to Mark Twain is Soaring Eagles in Horseheads designed by Pete Craig in 1963.   


I've played Hiawatha and would recommend Soaring Eagles which I've always enjoyed.  It has similar glacial landforms like Mark Twain where most of Hiawatha is river valley flat.


I was also a big fan of Green Lakes after playing it as a kid back in the 1970s but stopped by two years ago while camping nearby and was dismayed to see the choking tree plantings and growth have interrupted all of the formerly  beautiful long views across the property and the plethora of Pines looked to be a day of pitch-out golf so I went back to the kids and grandkids.

[Rob Marshall]

Richard,


Very near to Mark Twain is Soaring Eagles in Horseheads designed by Pete Craig in 1963.   


I've played Hiawatha and would recommend Soaring Eagles which I've always enjoyed.  It has similar glacial landforms like Mark Twain where most of Hiawatha is river valley flat.


I was also a big fan of Green Lakes after playing it as a kid back in the 1970s but stopped by two years ago while camping nearby and was dismayed to see the choking tree plantings and growth have interrupted all of the formerly  beautiful long views across the property and the plethora of Pines looked to be a day of pitch-out golf so I went back to the kids and grandkids.

Joey Sindelar grew up playing Soaring Eagles.

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