[Patrick_Mucci]

Do the strategies presented on the 18th hole at NGLA make it the consummate finishing hole ?

A hole with several options on every shot to the green, for every level of golfer.

[larry_munger]

As great a course as it is does everything have to be about The National?

[noonan]

What about the 18th at Pebble?

Could play safe for a par.....could go for it in 2 for a low #.

Jerry

[Nigel_Walton]

National is a delight. However, I have heard many observers feel that 18 is actually a bit of a weak finish after the genius of 16 and 17.  There is very little gained strategically by challenging the fairway bunker, as the lie and the shot to the green are quite similar on the right side of the fairway. The decline in the sight line doesn't seem to be enough of a detriment to cause one to choose to challenge the bunker, yes? For most golfers, the second shot is semi-blind and while the green is in a beautiful setting, it is actually one of the less interesting ones at National.

Perhaps 18 would be a better finisher if CB had put the tee on the other side of the road and taken the hole along the bay, where the practice range is? Just a thought.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Larry Munger,

I might have missed it, but, in a quick scan of the last 20 PAGES of threads, I didn't notice one single thread that you started.
For a guy who complains about a topic, you sure don't contribute much in the way of creating interesting topics or threads.

Why don't you start a thread of your own, on another topic ?

Noonan,

I don't believe that # 18 at Pebble Beach presents as many options as # 18 at NGLA.

Nigel Walton,

It does make sense to challenge the left fairway bunker off the tee if you understand the risk reward and are capable of the carry.  This can leave you with an iron into the green with a decent angle of attack.  Going to the right leaves you with a longer shot, and brings the right side hazard into play.
The elevation is slightly better on the left side, but I would say the next shot to the green is blind to semi-blind.

I think the green is interesting, with some contour that is more severe then it looks.  The green surrounds/complex is spectacular  The left side falls off into a swale, and shots hit long or right have bunkers and worse to contend with.
The fear factor is at its highest when the wind is up a little, irrespective of whether you're coming in from 20 yards or 120 yards.

If you view aerials of the fairway bunkering scheme, and then look at the hole from the back of the green, proceeding to the tee, I think you might gain a greater appreaciation of the hole, especially when something is on the line on the last hole.

Personally, I find # 16 to be rather easy, no matter where I hit my tee ball because of the universally correcting nature of the green complex.  There is no fear factor on # 16.

I find the same on # 17, mostly because the hole plays downwind a good deal.  I view the hole as a birdie opportunity, with little fear involved, unless the wind is in my face.

# 18 creates fear on the drive, fear on the 2nd shot and fear on the 3rd shot, especially if the pin is back and/or the wind is up.

But, those are just my opinions.

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:
I don't agree that the 18th is that fearful on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd shots.  I believe its a birdie hole.  

I personally like a hard par - easy bogey hole as a finish which would also be all world birdie.  Something like the 18th at Shinnecock, Merion, Friars Head, Riveria.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

I view those holes as challenging holes, but I don't see much strategy at all.

All of them require herculian drives followed by long second shots, to difficult greens and surroundings.

Most play NGLA for fun, but how many have ever played it under tournament conditions ?
Under tournament conditions, match or stroke play, # 18 offers plenty of strategy and plenty of challenge, especially with a zephyr of a breeze in the air.

For those who think it is easy, how about the following wager.
Make eagle, and I pay off at 8 to 1.
Make birdie, and I pay off at 4 to 1
Make par, and we push
Make bogie and you pay off at 4 to 1
Make double bogie and you pay off at 8 to 1
Make triple bogie and you pay off at 16 to 1
Make quadruple or higher and you pay off at 32 to 1.

Does that sound reasonable ?

[Jim Sweeney]

As I was sitting down to log on to GCA I was thinking of starting a thread about the strategic features of #18 at Harbor Town. I was struck by the several options employed by the players at the MCI today- drivers and three woods, challenge the hazard fir a shorter approach or play to the right for a better angle to the hole location. The fairway area at the right of the green clearly is a lay up area for the weaker player, but didn't DL3 recover from there quite nicely to record the tying birdie?

I was wondering if there was a better finish, from a strategic point of view.

[Patrick_Mucci]

jesplusone,

From the PGA Tour pro perspective, or for EVERY LEVEL of golfer ?

[Gene Greco]

Gentlemen:

     The operative word here is "strategically."

There are very few holes in the world which present such a myriad of options on every shot from every angle in various wind conditions, with wind being omnipresent.

16 and 17 are both interesting and aweinspiring. However, both lack the complexities which #18 present and which Patrick outlines in nice detail above.

 #18 is NOT a staight forward play and allows for great  variety in your approach to playing it unlike the other closers
listed above - Shinnecock, Merion ,Friar's, Pebble and Harbor Town - which are all great but have more specific requirements to achieve your objective.

The National Golf Links of America gives the golf architecture student a near perfect and complete examination in said subject and it would be wise for those of you who care to absorb it in its entirety and thank Patrick for his willingness to share as most will never see it.

[L_Fetter]

As great a course as it is does everything have to be about The National?

I agree and wish posters would show some discipline and try to post some original thoughts or  new subject matter.  NGLA has been done to death, over and over and over again, as have many other subjects which keep resurfacing.  But NGLA is the worst because virtually nobody has played the course, so it is just a bit of inside chat with the usual crowd.  This is a discussion group, not a chat board?

[Jeff Fortson]

Mr. Fetter,

I disagree with you whole heartedly.  I don't know if you have played NGLA or not but it is more than worthy of intense discussion and debate on this website.  NGLA has more strategy and shot value than almost any course on the planet.  

If you haven't played it and have no input to share or if you are simply sick and tired of the subject then I suggest not reading anything on this thread or others involving NGLA if it bothers you that much.  No one is forcing you to be a part of the discussion on NGLA or to read any of the posts.

Oh yeah, and by the way.....

it only happens to quite possibly be the finest piece of virtually untouched classic golf course architecture in existence.  It is a museum of golf course architecture that should be studied intensely by true students of the subject and an example for all to admire.

Jeff

[tonyt]

Mr Fetter & Mr Munger,

Please feel free to not view any thread with NGLA in it's title. I've never been to the North American continent, so am also among those who cannot offer comment. It is a discussion group, so let people discuss if they want to.

Doesn't stop me from casually viewing the threads, or not viewing them at all. There are hundreds of pages of alternative threads to view, if one you do not like crops up.

Just like my posts. Maybe worthy, maybe not. My peers on this site will choose individually to either read them or dismiss them.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr. Fetter & Mr. Munger

Whats the big deal?  It is a great course and Mr. Muccia is obviously very familiar with it.  Pat talks about Atlantic often and if he mentioned that club he would be taking heat also.  Why don't you guys start a thread on a course you like?

[L_Fetter]

It is boring and spoils the culture of this Discussion Group.  A bit like hearing the club bore at the 19th.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I am a longtime lurker and have always enjoyed Mr. Mucci and his posts.  He is a class act.  If you do not like talking about a great course and hole go to another site.  We do not want to bore you.  i have found this site fascinating especially when I have been challenged to accept my own biases in architecture.

[L_Fetter]

You enjoy the constant regurgitation of the same threads?  I see it as a waste of the valuable front page space of this DG (the only active part) and bad manners.

[Mike_Cirba]

L_Fetter/Larry Munger;

You gentlemen are certainly welcome to start your own threads on any course(s) or topics you choose to discuss.

At least Patrick tries to keep the discussion going here.  If we waited for you guys, this site would go into a coma.  

[Jim Sweeney]

Patrick_Mucci:

Harbor Town's 18th could be a good strategic challenge for many levels of play. Certainly the bail out area to the right of the green gives poorer players the opportunity to perhaps make par while avoiding the hazard left....It will play as a par five for many golfers...longer hitters will still challenge the front bunker.

BTW, there is a teeing ground about 40 yds. behind that used for the MCI. It would take a well hit full driver to get the ball to the center of that penninsular fairway, and anythin gto the right would require a long iron or fairway wood to reach the green. PLaying that hole from the tee they actually use increases the strategic values for the tours players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

L Fetter,

Most people who visit this site have never played Cypress Point, Sand Hills, Pine Valley, Newport, Friar's Head and St Andrews.  That doesn't invalidate any discussion relative to those courses, their architectural, aesthetic and strategic merit.

Perhaps, after you read "Scotland's Gift" you will be more interested in discussions regarding NGLA.

The 18th hole at NGLA is unique.  

I have a low aerial from a different angle that I will scan and email to someone who knows how to post photos on this site, after viewing same, perhaps your interest in architecture will be stimulated.  
If not, then I would imagine that this site is not for you.

This is a par 5 that is only 503 yards long, yet offers strategic challenges on every shot, risk/reward, agony and ecstacy.
It is a joy to play, and study.

However, NGLA may not be to your liking, and you are always free to post you own thread anytime you feel comfortable in doing so.

Mike Cirba, et. al.,

I have noticed players laying back with 3-woods and irons off the tee, but the 2nd shot seems to bring even more peril into play, and it leaves a difficult 3rd shot, especially with the pin in the rear.

Who amongst us, with the wind out of the south or west will opt to hit it to the right side of the fairway leaving the more advantageous angle of attack into the green on the 3rd shot ?

[ForkaB]

Pat

I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but the "facts" as I see them, are......

1.  Only a small number of us have played NGLA
2.  A VERY small number of us (no me) have played the course more than once or twice
3.  Only a handful of us (no me, again) have played it relatively frequently under competitive conditions
4.  No elite professionals have ever regularly played the course under competitive conditions

So, how can we possibly compare 18 at NGLA to 18 at Pebble Beach or 18 at Harbour Town, say?  Even if some of us can make a personal comparison (i.e. fulfill conditions 1-3 above), nobody can say for certain how the hole might stand up under condition 4. above.

My guess is that if 18 NGLA were subject to as much scrutiny and as much play by elite profesionals in competition as PB #18, it would be exposed as a fairly interesting long "par" 4, but not much more.  For most of us, it is a nice, out of character, slog up the hill which is a poster boy for the "must get back to the clubhouse on top of the hill" school of golf course architecture (viz. Shinnecock, Cypress Point, Pacific Dunes, etc.).

I'm receptive to hearing from you or others why exactly (no mealy mouthed "multiple angles" sort of stuff...) this is really such a great golf hole.

Iconoclastically Yours

Rich

[Paul_Turner]

Threads like these would benefit greatly from pics, so that us plebs can get a better idea of the hole  Patrick, if you invest in a digital camera and take some snaps, I would post them for you.

Bernard Darwin liked this hole very much, although another famous British golf author Peter Allen couldn't quite work out why.  Like Rich, I think he thought it was a bit of slog.

[Jeff Fortson]

Mr. Fetter,

We all obviously are wrong here and you are right.  It seems as if we don't understand your higher intelligence. So, if you could, please explain how Pat Mucci making a thread, that no one forced you to come into and post on, is bad manners.  

Please stop reading or posting if you are so disgusted.  I'm sure this thread will turn into something like the "club bore at the 19th" at any time now.  

Or even better yet, create your own thread about a topic you actually want to talk about!  WOW, NOW THERE IS AN IDEA!!!

Sincerely,

Jeff F.

[Joel_Stewart]

All of them require herculian drives followed by long second shots, to difficult greens and surroundings.

Exactly.  Here is what confused me and it relates to the topic of this post.  I believe "the best finishing holes" are the difficult holes.  Are they strategic, they could be but rely more on strength and shot making.

NGLA #18 is a par 5 thus couldn't any of the championship courses with par 5 finishing holes be considered great from a strategic standpoint,  Pebble Beach, Cherry Hills, Pacific Dunes, San Francisco GC?

[Steve_L.]

Unlike Joel, I prefer 18th holes which are punishing if misplayed, but give a reasonable chance for a good finish.  A "feel good" hole if you will...

Many par-5's fall into this category - but not necessarily...

I've never played NGLA, but George Bahto's book gives great description - and I've learned a lot from others here...  I think it's a terrific hole, not just by it's strategy, but by its setting with the clubhouse, etc...  Based upon what I know, I wouldn't consider it among the BEST finishing holes or best par-5's in the world - but IMO it is an ideal finish to the course (one that serves its membership, not major professional champions).

I'd love to see the photo you refer to Pat - I'm no smarter about how to post it, but hope to see it here and/or via email!

All the best,

Steve

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