[Thomas Dai]

Not quite sure what happened above! Here are Charles photos of the Glashedy course.







And here's the photo posted above by Stewart of the Old course at Ballyliffin for comparison purposes.


Atb

[JESII]

I will be glad to hear the thoughts of the many here who know these courses (and the history) better than I do. I am trying, in getting an answer to these questions, to get a better sense of what was lost when rumpled fairways went out of vogue and/or were flattened out of existence.

Peter 

         

Peter,


This is a good question. I think the primary effect rumpled fairways had, in the context of having lost them for the most part, is that they managed expectations. Perhaps a better term is that they countered the entitlement culture evidenced by the concept of deserving a par once the player has driven it in the fairway.


The fairway is maintained better than the rough to provide an advantage, yes, but all too often people complain about having a funny stance or a poor lie in the fairway as though there was some guarantee that a decent tee shot will result in an easy second shot.


The mindset was, I think, more competitive. Figuring out how to get the ball in the hole across all that unpredictable ground was the challenge and succeeding was the reward.

[BCrosby]

I will be glad to hear the thoughts of the many here who know these courses (and the history) better than I do. I am trying, in getting an answer to these questions, to get a better sense of what was lost when rumpled fairways went out of vogue and/or were flattened out of existence.

       

Peter,

This is a good question. I think the primary effect rumpled fairways had, in the context of having lost them for the most part, is that they managed expectations. Perhaps a better term is that they countered the entitlement culture evidenced by the concept of deserving a par once the player has driven it in the fairway.

The fairway is maintained better than the rough to provide an advantage, yes, but all too often people complain about having a funny stance or a poor lie in the fairway as though there was some guarantee that a decent tee shot will result in an easy second shot.

The mindset was, I think, more competitive. Figuring out how to get the ball in the hole across all that unpredictable ground was the challenge and succeeding was the reward.

Yep. Well said.


Bob

[Charles Lund]

I am posting an email to a GCA member I sent directly regarding the photos of Glashedy and some other issues about Ballyliffin courses.

"I see you were not able to upload my photos to the GCA website.

There is an online course guide that shows 3D’s of holes on Glashedy.  Although it doesn’t show the fairway detail as well as photos, you can see the routing went between many large dunes and has a great deal of elevation change.  Although I don’t have personal knowledge of what the terrain was like before fairways were created, people have related the fact that where fairways are now, there was once duneland.  I would suspect that smaller dunes were flattened and material was moved with natural contours left and/or new contours created when fairways were built.

Here is the link:

http://www.ballyliffingolfclub.com/courseguide


I believe I read that the main expense for building The Old Links was for greens and the rest was donated labor and use of donated time for farm equipment members owned.  If you visit the area and go to Doagh Famine Village, the history of the area is described.  There was no real electrical grid in the area at the time the original course was built (1947) and it was probably in the mid 60s that something like a modern grid was developed.  I think the basics of the current 18 on the Old Links were built in the late 60s or early 70s.

Glashedy was built with money from an Irish Tourism grant. 

I don’t want to quote a construction price for either course but various references in books I have in another location are ridiculously low by todays’ standards and The Old Links ridiculously low compared to Glashedy."

Charles Lund

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Charles.


Not really sure why the photos didn't upload. I seem to have had the same problem on another thread (Cleeve) as well. Photobucket is currently on 'go-slow' with me. When it speeds up I'll investigate/have another go. Fingers crossed.

Edit - Glashedy photos above now posted.

atb

[Peter Pallotta]

To Bob's well said I'd add my own - thanks Jim for grappling with the question/answer. There indeed seems something essentially different (re both the game and its fields of play) about the "guarantee" we nowadays not only seek but take for granted. Not surprisingly, perhaps, this modern expectation goes hand in hand with a complex web of diametrically different expectations about what should happen to us when we don't hit a decent tee shot.

Peter     

[Sean_A]

Jim


Wasn't the idea of a "fair" lie a reaction to rumpled fairways?


In any case, I don't believe the orginal concept was nearly as plotted/planned as you suggest.  Guys routing courses simply thought it looked sporting to traverse interesting ground, over hills, dunes, waste area etc.  In essence, the concept was why should there be any easy path to the hole...ie penal.  It just happens that bumpy fairways were a mild form of the idea.  Later archies picked up on bumpy fairways as way to preserve some element of the sporting past while also aiming to create more strategic designs.  In essence, bumpy fairways were an element of luck to counterbalance the rising codification of design.


Ciao

[BCrosby]

What Jim gets right is similar to what Doak noted several days ago about what was lost after the Golden Age. Post WWII there was a felt need to 'clean-up' odd, unpredictable natural details, whether in the name of 'fairness' or for a more groomed look or whatever.

There weren't many courses built in the 1960's that did not bulldoze over little humps and ripples in fw's. The idea being (at least in the US) that fw's should look something like clean road cuts that told the golfer that a good drive meant he could count on a flat, predictable lie for his next shot.

Bob 

 

[JESII]

Sean,


I agree with you that using the rumpled fairways was not planned. My feeling is that, when looking back now, the rumpled fairways created a sense of uncertainty that is gone with modern construction techniques. That uncertainty developed a mindset in which the player is more prepared for a wide range of outcomes on any shot.

[Sean_A]

Jim

I don't think there is any question you are correct. The uncertainty of the bounce is something which even today many do not like even though it is often predictable.  I would also raise the issue of controlling ball flight off wonky lies (especially on windy sites)...which is why I often wondered why good ball strikers wouldn't prefer this sort of design because they gain an obvious and well earned advantage.  Loads of times there isn't any need for added hazards if the course is mainly routed of bumpy ground. I know these tend to be sandy sites and that its easier to whack in bunkers on sandy sites, but I often think the beauty of natural bumpy terrain is spoiled by bunkers...and rough.  I think until folks are willing to accept an unnatural look of hand-made bumpy ground that we shall continue paving a lot of roads through trees, bunkers and water.  That is afterall, the "look" a huge percentage of golfers expect.

Ciao

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