[eaglepower]

   When I mentioned driver-wedge, I.m really referring to the amount of short irons that can be hit into greens that couldn't be 20 years ago.  Obviously ther are some long holes there.

   As far as mentioning your list, I'm saying that it seems you are taking a lot of the credit away from great archetects and giving it to Flynn.  Do you think Merion should be known as a Hugh Wilson or a William Flynn?  Any time I have been at Merion, the only Flynn mention has been with the West course.  You would think some of rhe members would mention it.

[wsmorrison]

eaglepower,

The list is merely that, a list.  It does not assign or take away any design credit but rather is a general illustration of his work.  It does not assign percentages of attribution to Flynn or others.  The list is broken down into design work and redesign work (varying degrees from redoing one or two greens (Columbia) to considerably more (TCC-Brookline).  I probably should add a fourth section on the courses that Toomey and Flynn constructed for other designers such as Westchester Biltmore (built in 1920 and supposed Flynn redesign work later in the 20s; have to learn more about that from Mike Prystowsky and others), Burning Tree, and the Sunnehanna redesign by Tillinghast.

Regarding Merion, I would say that it was originally a Wilson design with a great deal of input by Flynn.  Wilson was in charge of the project yet the design evolution took place over a period of 20 or more years during which time many significant changes occurred, some of which is clearly Flynn, and some of which occurred after Wilson's death.  I don't know who you spoke with, but many informed members that I know consider it a Wilson-Flynn design.  This is a third alternative to the other two you mention (either Wilson or Flynn) and is probably most correct.  However, I put Merion in as a redesign not an original design.  In what way is this misleading?  He did redesign work there, nobody disputes that...unless you do.  Were you aware that Wilson and Flynn worked together on a number of design projects?  Some of which were thought only to be a Flynn (Marble Hall for example).  So I ask you, what design credit am I wrongfully taking away and attributing to Flynn?  I am finding evidence where some of Flynn might be shared with Wilson.  Perhaps Flynn assisted Wilson at Cobb's Creek or Phoenixville, we'll have to do more detective work.  Do you base your conclusions regarding design credit through such exhaustive research as not hearing any members mentioning his name?  

Hopefully when the book on the courses of William Flynn is complete it will have sufficient evidence to convince the most skeptical such as yourself of the histories we present.  Where there are lesser degrees of supporting evidence, it will be presented as such.  eaglepower, I'll send you a manuscript of the book.  If you end up liking it, I know it will be good.

[Vokey]

I know everyone here does a very good job of judging/critiquing courses on the true merits of architectural design and fidelity to the architect's original vision.  However, as a life long Philadelphian who has played all of the these and had this very same discussion of "ranking" Flynn's Philly courses in the grillrooms of many of these clubs, it makes me wonder how much are rankings differences between all of these clubs caught up in the "cult of personality" of the clubs themselves?

For instance, while maybe not well known nationally, in the Mid-Atlantic region, HVCC is known for its incredibly strong playing membership and the influences of Jack Connelly, Gordon Brewer, et al.  Along with some other clubs with clearly inferior courses, eg, Yardley and Overbrook, HVCC is the "player's club" in the area.  Don't you think that tinges people's perception of the course itself as well?

Same for Philly Country.  Set in Gladwyne its hard to get much more "Main Line" than Philly Country.  Nelson over Snead in '39.  Doesn't history and tradition influence people's view of the course?  Truth be told, doesn't Philly Country have some uninspired holes, eg 1 and 18 come quickly to mind?  

My point is that all of these courses are tremendous, but picking HVCC over Mannies or Philly Country over Rolling Green may have more to do with which club is the more established in their respective neighborhoods in my mind than on the actual respective architectural merits of the courses themselves.

Following up on the question about Flynn vs. Ross in Philly area, I think any such comparison also supports my point.  Look at the "cult of personality" surrounding Aronimink.  Its a great course (and an even better golf club) but renovation and Sr PGA notwithstanding, I can't place it ahead of HVCC, Rolling Green, Lancaster, Mannies or Philly Country.  However, since I was born (with a few years recently as the only exception), I have been told by the official rankings that Aronimink was the No. 3 course in all of Philly, behind only PVCC and Merion. In actuality, it may only be the No. 3 course in Delaware County (behind Merion and Rolling Green).

[Mike_Cirba]

Vokey;

You think cache has something to do with it?

Hmm.

I can tell you the reason I prefer HVCC has nothing at all to do with the fact that the membership includes good players and all to do with the way the course is designed and maintained.

In the case of Philadelphia CC, I could really care less that it's old Main Line money.  The job they did restoring bunkers, removing many trees that opened stunning vistas, and redoing their greens is examplary.  I agree with you that #18 is a fairly blase' finishing hole (not Flynn's hole, either), but the first is a blast as a tricky, short par four.  

By contrast, Mannies which you seem to hold in higher regard has very non-descript bunkers, greens that seem very tame for Flynn, and is tree-impinged more than an arboretum.  Wayne mentioned above that they will be addressing some of these issues, which is a great sign because there are some terrific holes there.

[Vokey]

Mike -
As I started my previous post, I am not suggesting anyone on this board is using "cache" as a concious factor.  To the contrary, I think everyone is expressing heartfelt and sincere views on architectural merit.  

That said, I do seem to hold Manufacturers in higher esteem than some others here.  No doubt, the place is way overgrown and some of the greens are nondescript (1, 5, 8, 10 come to mind), but I still would place holes there like 2, 3, 6, 10, 11, and 18 up there with anything else in the area.  My personal favorites at Mannies are 14 and 16 -- two of the best par 4s anywhere.

That said, I really, really like HVCC and Philly Country too.  Your observation about giving HVCC high marks for course maintenance is very well taken.  In the '20s, Flynn certainly envisioned such a hilly course playing hard and fast, and the club has stayed true (or returned) to his view.

I have always felt Rolling Green was underrated (except for possibly on this board) and maybe the best of Flynn's Philly group.

[mike_malone]

I think that RG has seen a diminishment of the hazard of length over time.So i do not feel the need to beat up on eaglepower.However,other changes have taken place that have created compensating hazards.Greens are faster than 50 years ago,trees have encroached so that some of those longer drives go deeper into trouble,bunkers are deeper,fairways are narrower,etc.
   We had a competition of many good amateurs last fall and the better-ball winner was 2 over.(Chairman can correct me if i am off by some on this number)I still believe the greens  are the most important hazard.

    Also as time goes by our long par threes become long irons instead of woods.Ithink most every golfer finds those clubs challenging to hit.As was said before a par five you try to reach in two is more challenging than one where you layup.
So i think RG has evolved well to deal with technology.


    

  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mike,

That's one long hitter to hit iron on #10.  240+ yards uphill.

[mike_malone]

Scott
    I have seen the big boys do that often.

   Mike Cirba

    Could you expand on this"maintained consistent with the original architecture" concept.I know you have seen Wayne's treasure trove so you know the original intent on these courses.But most average players and even raters do not know this intent.Would this not leave this analysis to a chosen few?

[wsmorrison]

Scott,

I hope they put in the 260 yard tee on RG #10 that Flynn called for in his 1925 plan and easy to implement.  

There are other holes that can be lengthened without compromising design integrity.  There is a new back tee on 4.  Mayday proposed an alternate green on #7 beyond and a bit right of the present green.  This may have been a greensite that Flynn wanted (erased on a map in The Flynn Room).  There's room behind 14 on a natural rise behind the cartpath.  As if 14 isn't hard enough. There is a little rise about 20 yards behind 16 that would make an excellent tee.  Lastly, a lowered tee to the left of the present tee on 17 would effectively increase length.  Otherwise the course holds up quite well, even today.

I think that no tournament of 2 or more rounds was ever completed under par at RG?  Mayday?  Chairman?  Is that correct?

[mike_malone]

Wayne
    Please do not tell anybody about my speculative idea for a "blue" green on #7.You may want to shoot yourself in the foot by calling the bunker work a mistake,but i lost almost all influence and am laying low.
   People do not listen to the easiest ideas,so i am trying not to present any new ones at the moment.Besides,i am working on my masterpiece"Implementing a tree management program"and i need to save my two cents of credibility for that effort.
    So i will not mention here that we could add forty yards to #13 and make it a par 5.Saying that would send me to the looneybin.
    I have told you that you are alienating all the know-it-alls already by having the nerve to write a book on Flynn when you have not been a member for 25 years.

  

[Mike_Cirba]

mayday;

I'm going to "cheat" in responding to you by using Ran's words on the HV course description on this site, and then offer a bit myself;

"..., the course has a consistent theme to it: the great majority of greens are canted from one side to the other. It doesn't take long to figure out that one cannot have a decent score at Huntingdon Valley by consistently missing the greens on the high side. This feature is so refreshing (refreshing for a 65+ year-old course?!?) compared to the predictable back-to-front slope on so many greens on many courses. In fact, the authors wonder if Tom Doak and Gil Hanse borrowed this concept from HVCC for their own Stonewall just west of Philadelphia. At Stonewall almost every green has a definite high side. Players can use these slopes to their advantage or have these slopes make for a very long round. It is infinitely more enjoyable to aim left or right of the hole and watch the green move the ball toward the hole than continually face the same question asked by back-to-front sloping greens."

"Third, as noted by David Eger, 1988 Mid-Amateur Champion, the course keeps the player on edge with few level stances in the fairway. However, the slopes are fairly subtle so that the player is not hit over the head with this characteristic. Special note needs to be paid to Green Keeper Scott Anderson and to the Club for their approach to course conditioning. They pride themselves on having the firmest, fastest course in the Philadelphia area (this includes Merion) and are not afraid to see a little brown on the course. Hundreds and hundreds of parkland courses need to follow in their footsteps across the country. As is clearly demonstrated at Huntingdon Valley,  firm courses provide for far more thoughtful shotmaking as the player must think about where he wants to land each shot. The player is forced to appreciate the land more and as the Green Comittee chairman remarked, 'The land is your friend here.'"

"To top it off, the course has the requisite Flynn attributes: excellent bunkering, often dug into the sides of hills; beautifully-framed green sites and interesting recovery shots to varied greens."

Mayday, I'd just add to that that the "high sides" that Ran talked about are maintained as fairway.  I see too many clubs (Flynn and otherwise) taking away these valid approaches by growing thick rough on the high-side, or worse yet, combining that with evergreen tree planting along the high-side slope (think #7 at RG), thereby eliminating the running shot.      

Think about how cool #5 at Merion, for instance, would be if the fairway was restored to it's original width, with the fairway coming up to and behind the bunker that fronts the right portion of the green!  One would be able to flirt with that bunker and if successful, use the slope to work the ball onto the green.  

The following pic from behind the 2nd hole at HV is illustrative.  If one flirts with the bunker (that's short of the green but in the "perfect" spot...seen in this picture as a grassy hump from behind)  successfully, the fairway cut beyond accommodates the running approach on the longish par four.  



That's the kind of symbiotic relationship between architectural intent and maintenance practices that I like to see, and it's exhibited in spades at Huntingdon Valley.  

Contrast that maintenance approach with the following hole you might be familiar with and I think you'll see the difference!  

[Paul_Turner]

Wayne

Have you worked out what Flynn did at PV?  Was it construction of those 4 or 5 greens to Alison's specs?

Thanks

[wsmorrison]

Paul,

Tom Paul is really the one we need to answer this question.  It is certainly one we intend to address for our book project.  I'm sure he would point out the need to explore the archives in much greater detail.  However to date, we do know something of Flynn's activities at Pine Valley.  

In studying the Hugh and Alan Wilson letters to Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture, we know that Flynn took charge of the agronomic work at Pine Valley in June of 1919 where he worked on site 3 to 4 days a week for several months.  The sandy soil was not conducive to growing grasses and they lost their fairways.  So the soil needed to be plowed up and clay and manure added to form a more proper growing medium for the grasses.  By the middle of August, the fairways were reported to be in excellent shape.  

Both William Flynn and Howard Toomey were members of Pine Valley and on the Green Committee.  In addition, Toomey was on the Board of Directors and the Committee in Charge.  

At this point, I am not sure what role Flynn figured in after Crump's death in early 1918.  There were still the 12th through 15th holes that were unfinished.  Hugh and Alan Wilson were in charge of constructing these remaining holes.  It seems reasonable to assume that Flynn was instrumental in helping them accomplish this task.  He was there in 1919 doing the regrassing and he probably worked on the course with the Wilsons and quite possibly assisted in following the 1921 green committee approval of Alison's recommendations.   We'll have to try and determine if Flynn and/or Toomey were on this committee.   We do know that Flynn was in charge of construction of the alternate 9th green as per Alison's design.  Perhaps Flynn was involved in other aspects of construction and contributed some design elements as well.  This needs to be looked at further.

What we do know is that Flynn redid the sand faces of the hillside fronting the 2nd and 18th holes, creating discreet bunkers (reminiscent other bunker work of his) where there once were large sand faces that continually eroded.  I have been told that Flynn redid other bunkers and added some tees but I have not yet gotten anything conclusive to support these tales.

We'll get to the bottom of it all one of these days, soon it is hoped.

[wsmorrison]

Mike Cirba,

Can you see to it that the Chairman receives a copy of your post showing HV #2 and RG #7?  It is a very good illustration of your point!

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne;

The Chairman and I have had this discussion before.  He's convinced that removal of those trees would make the hole too easy, as you know.  Frankly, as a low-handicap golfer coming into this green with probably a mid-iron on a par five, I think he doesn't want some mid-handicapper running a three wood on from the right side, as Flynn intended I'm certain.

As a par five, the hole is already probably "too easy" for long hitting low-handicappers.  However, if one considers how difficult many of the par fours are, as well as the demanding par threes, I frankly don't see what's wrong with a hole that gives up a birdie to two well struck shots.  It's certain that the rest of the course will exact appropriate challenge to par.

[TEPaul]

Vokey said:

"For instance, while maybe not well known nationally, in the Mid-Atlantic region, HVCC is known for its incredibly strong playing membership and the influences of Jack Connelly, Gordon Brewer, et al.  Along with some other clubs with clearly inferior courses, eg, Yardley and Overbrook, HVCC is the "player's club" in the area.  Don't you think that tinges people's perception of the course itself as well?"

Vokey:

I think the quality of HV's golfers certainly might tinge people's perception of the golf course itself and its architecture but in my opinion that should be looked at positively regarding the quality of the course and its architecture.

In other words, instead of saying the quality of HV's golfers being primarily responsible for the perception of the quality of the course and its architecture perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the quality of the course and its architecture is the primary reason HV has always had good golfers.

One of the interests in Flynn to me is what he was apt to do architecturally if a club gave him what might be termed the "green light" to build a particular type of course. HVGC just might be one of the best and most interesting examples of such a course. Shinnecock certainly is and the NLE Mill Road Farm apparently was too.

As you may know HVGC is the second site of the club and their instructions to Flynn apparently was to build them a championship course ratcheting up in demand from the A to the B and even more so on the C nine. That alone makes it interesting architecturally to me, or interesting in the evolution of architecture.

The natural valley site of HVGC is also not easy to route and design on and as such I think is a great example of what a gutsy designer Flynn could be. Flynn was unquestionably a great router and one who showed as much "elan" in rolling around and across a complex site as possibly any architect. Some of Flynn's routings and golf holes can give a golfer just about anything and everything, particularly topographically, and Huntingdon Valley is a great example of that--so is Lehigh, Manufacturers, Lancaster and a number of his other Philadelphia courses as well as others of his elsewhere.

But HVGC might just be the ultimate that way of any of Flynn's courses and as such is a course that has always been much admired and also much criticized for that aspect alone.

The fact is more than 3/4 of the time a golfer really won't find himself with a flat lie at HVGC even placing the ball in the ideal spot and many good players just don't like or accept that.

I'm from Philly too and have played all those courses and HVGC a ton of times in tournaments and the "book" on HVGC is and always has been that the players from that course are some of the best ball strikers anywhere because they had to learn to be growing up on and playing a course like that. If a golfer is going to playing all those demanding uneven lie shots day after day, year after year, constantly analyzing and playing slope and topography of all kinds like that ultimately it's going to improve his game and shot-making ability big time.

So I think the perception of HVGC should not be that the players there make the reputation of the course and its architecture but that ultimately the course and its architecture has made the HVGC players better or as good as they are!

[TEPaul]

"Have you worked out what Flynn did at PV?  Was it construction of those 4 or 5 greens to Alison's specs?"

I haven't been able to document it yet but my sense is that Flynn (and the "Merion contingent") probably helped construct present PV holes #12-#15) to Crump's basic design. It also appears definite that Flynn (and Thomas) might have build right #9 green to Alison's design specs. It's also possible that Flynn (and the Merion contingent) might have reconstructed greens #6, #11, #17 to Alison's redesign specs. It appears that #8 green was done by Maxwell to his own specs (internal contours) off the original approval by the 1921 Advisory Committee of Alison's recommendation for that green's redesign. And left #9 green is a Maxwell redesign of Crump's original green.

We've found a letter from Alan Wilson stating that Flynn was on loan to PV for 3-4 days per week for an extended period after Crump's death.

Toomey, Flynn, Alan and Hugh Wilson and George Thomas were all members of PV.

[TEPaul]

Scott Burroughs said:

"Mike,
That's one long hitter to hit iron on #10.  240+ yards uphill."

Just for the record the last time Rolling Green had the Pa State Open (including Furyk and Sigel) only one contestant hit anything other than a wood to #10. That was Stu Inghram who hit a 1 iron onto the green. BTW, Stu can hit a 1 iron about 20 yards longer than some of you big hitters can hit your best driver.

[archie_struthers]

Although I'm prejudiced towards Woodcrest, Atlantic City, and Philly Country Club  for various reasons and thoroughly enjoy Lehigh, Lancaster and just about all Flynns' work I can say that in my mind Rolling Green is the best of Philly! The combination of long short holes, exceptional par threes and some fantastic green complexes make it my numero uno. In that rating is sooo subjective, I'll stop right now.

This takes into account design and not necessarily playing conditions because as we all know they vary with time and regimes.

[mike_malone]

 Mike Cirba
    Thank you for your elucidation.I particularly appreciate your reference to #7 RG.I have used #5 at Merion as my guide for how we should maintain the right side of #7 . While it (#5 at MGC) may need fairway after the bunker it does have a wonderful amount of fairway at the green.It makes sense to me that since #7 RG  was designed as a runup hole that eliminating rough that stops your ball and replacing it with fairway that promotes the roll is appropiate.Also i would make the fairway continue around to the back of the green.This would add challenge and fun to how much run do you play for.
  People have told me that the shot across the creek to this hole is the most enjoyable one on the course for guests.Why would anyone plant trees to lessen this?

   This shows that people lost sight of the original designer's frame of mind--strategic--and replaced it with a completely contradictory one---penal..

  Watching Hilton Head this weekend i saw a classic example of the "penal".I do not like it and particularly think it is an abortion to superimpose it on a classic strategic course.

[Vokey]

TEPaul -

Touche!  Great point about HVCC.  Maybe I did get "the chicken or the egg" thing backwards.  There is simply no doubt that HVCC (A, B and/or C) requires a player to master all aspects of his game.  Surely that is one of the yardsticks of a great course.

[Dick_Sayer]

As the immediate past president of Huntingdon Valley Country Club and a Member for 28 years, I may be a little prejudiced, however, I don't think there's a better example of Flynn's design ability anywhere in the country then at HVCC. Toomey and Flynn ( the company name ) are perhaps the least known golf course designers and constructers in the U.S., and I only wish they would somehow achieve the level of national credit they deserve.

Huntingdon Valley opened its season last weekend, and the golf course is in as good condition right now as it will be throughout the rest of the year.  There's not a mark on the fairways, thanks to the 4 month snow cover, and the greens are like glass, and this is only the third week in April.

Scott Anderson, our course superintendant for the past 18 years, has things down to a science.  Most of the work done in the late fall is designed to get the course into championship form by opening weekend, and year after year he's accomplished his objective.

I played this morning, and the greens were rolling at 12.5 on the 24th of April.

PS.   Flynn also designed Green Valley in Lafayette Hill PA

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