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Mike_Cirba

Re: Not raking bunkers?
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2003, 10:54:54 AM »
Carlyle;

Perhaps it's just because I grew up playing some pretty ramshackle places with scant "bunker maintenance", but one quickly learned on them to accept that hazards aren't a place where one should expect firm, flat, consistent, flaccid, easy up-and-down conditions. †

In fact, I'd argue that irregularly conditioned bunkers bring out more skills, and offer more variety in the types of shots one must learn to recover successfully. †

In no case did we avoid them like the plague simply because they were a bit pocked and iffy. †We just were a bit more cognizant of their presence, which all and all seems to me a good thing when considering strategic alternatives.

How would you think the folks at Pine Valley would react if there were such an aversion to unkempt bunker conditions?  Why, they'd never venture out of the clubhouse! ;)† †
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not raking bunkers?
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2003, 11:11:10 AM »
Playing from a footprint doesn't enhance strategic interest.  Neither does putting over ballmarks.

Certain courtesies and etiquette should be honored on the golf course.  There's no way to guarantee fair outcomes; but, we should endeavor to provide playing conditions for the rest of the field that are comparable with our own.  It's a fundamental part of sportsmanship, and sportsmanship is a fundamental part of golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Not raking bunkers?
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2003, 11:23:03 AM »
Carlyle;

I agree on sportsmanship, no question. †

And I don't think it's in short supply at places like Pine Valley or Sand Hills, where rakes don't exist. †One simply smooths the most odious prints they can with a foot or club and continues on.

As far as footprints or irregularities not affecting strategy, I would differ with you there. †Frankly, one has to consider possible outcomes of various scenarios and choose the best one. †That may sometimes involve playing sideways, backwards, or towards the hole given enough room. †

Just because the choice isn't between which of three wedges to use to loft the ball softly, cleanly, and directly at the hole doesn't mean there's no strategy. †:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Figured it out
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2003, 05:01:55 PM »
I think I figured it out.  You guys are just too damn lazy to rake the bunkers!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Not raking bunkers?
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2003, 10:21:30 PM »
Carlyle

You have it all, tragically, wrong.......

The purpose of golf is to punish those foolish enough to be attracted to the pursuit.  The more random and the more unfair, the better the game plays for true afficionados.  Quite frankly, there is far too much "etiquette" in the game now as it is.  What's all this crap about raking bunkers, replacing divots, fixing ball marks, tapping down one's own spike marks after finishing the hole?  What do you namby pambies think you are playing at?  Whist?  Lawn Bowling?  If you are competing, why not make it as hard as possible for those competitors who follow you on the course?  I personally make sure that I leave every bunker I am in in a far worse state than how I found it, and do my best to place as many spike marks as possible on each green, preferably within a 6-foot radius of the hole.  I am a God to the guys that play with me and behind me, as my unselfish actions substantially enhance the "strategy" of all the courses I play.  Just ask Cirba.

Get out of your ivory tower, Carlyle and smell the putrefying flowers of golf as it was meant to be played by the miserable Calvinists who invented it and the East Coast Americans who perfected it........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Not raking bunkers?
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2003, 06:03:42 AM »
Rich;

You forgot to mention physically assaulting opponents, insulting one's host, exhibiting bad table manners in the clubhouse, and shouting blasphemies to the heavens with each missed putt.  ;)

I go by one simple rule, Rich, despite my stoic Calvinist upbringing; leave the course better than you found it.

And yes, that includes smoothing foot and club prints in bunkers for the next fellow or lady.    

What that has to do with the fact that maintenance crews often complain that they spend more time manicuring bunkers for consistency than they do greens, I'm not sure.

I'm also wondering how the poor, masochistic Calvinists at Pine Valley and Sand Hills are able to deal with less than pristine bunker conditioning on a daily basis.  Perhaps part of their philosophy is simply that hazards are not nice places, nor were they ever meant to be.    

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not raking bunkers?
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2003, 04:47:18 PM »

Quote
Rake bunker with hole, leave rake in bunker.  I'd much rather be in the bunker and hit the rake, then hit the rake on turf and get kicked into a bunker.


Didn't Golf Digest do a study that showed:

When rakes are left on the outside of the bunker, 81.2% of the shots stayed out of the bunker, 18.8% went into the bunker.  

Of the 81.2% that did not go into the bunker, 94.0% would have gone into the bunker if the rake was not where it was.

Of the 18.8% that went into the bunker, 69.1% would have gone into the bunker regardless of where the rake was and 100% of the golfers hitting the shot said "Did you set that, it hit the rake ..."

Maybe I'm getting confused with the pin-in vs. pin-out on chip shot analysis that was done ... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not raking bunkers?
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2003, 07:08:00 PM »
John,

I agree with your reasons for leaving the rakes outside the bunkers. These and other good arguments for this practice are developed in the USGA decisions book in the Miscellaneous decisions section (Misc./2) on page 599 of the old book but they ultimately leave it up to the comittee to decide.

Maggerts comments are lame as where do you go with the bunker full of walnuts or pine needles or other loose impediments if you are going to complain about insufficient raking. How much longer would the pace of play be on the tour if the caddies were compelled to be rake artistes?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not raking bunkers?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2003, 07:22:52 PM »

Quote
Of the 81.2% that did not go into the bunker, 94.0% would have gone into the bunker if the rake was not where it was.

This is what bothers me the most.  If I deserved to be in the bunker then I should be in the bunker, not given a break by some artificial agency.  I don't want to be out of the bunker if I hit it in a manner that would have placed it in the bunker.  Itís all about the "responsibility for my actions thing".  IMHO, if one fails, one should be punished.  The trappings of a golf course shouldn't get in the way of the golf gods wishes.  Maybe I'm just a masochistic golfer?

Cheers!

JT
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jim Thompson

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